Law Enforcement Karambit

[sgtmac_46]

My question has to do with the opinion of those experienced with Karambit work on the adviseability of carrying a Karambit by law enforcement in retraining the firearm in a gun takeaway situation.

Well made arguments have been that the Karambit is a limited use weapon. In the context i'm wishing to discuss it, however, that limited role becomes it's primary role, specifically as a supplement to the firearm and an aid in it's retention.

Allow me to present the scenario as i'm working on it right now.....a fixed-blade karambit in the style of the Emerson fixed blade carried on the belt on the support side. In the event of a gun takeaway attempt, the Karambit would be drawn and used to cut the attacker off of the grab attempt by slicing tendons, nerves and muscles of the attackers arms while the dominant hand maintains strong grip on the gun in combination with an effective retention holster.

As such the reach and versatility of other knife designs are not a real issue of advantage here. The attacker has placed himself in extreme close proximity, grappling range so to speak. He has also extended his arms in order to reach the officers sidearm.

What is at the core of my thinking in view of the Karambit is it's ability to dig under and sever nerves, muscles and tendons. Deep penetration of organs is not an issue in the above scenario as i've seen men on the street who have been stabbed in the liver and lungs continue to be able to struggle at full power for up to a minute or more. My goal in the above situation is to immediately destroy the underlying structure of the attackers arms by attacking directly the nerves, muscles and tendons, thereby immediately destroying his ability to remove the firearm from the officers holster by taking away the voluntary use of his hands. In the above scenario I do not want to have to rely on blood loss and vital organ damage during a prolonged struggle to end the attackers threat.

Any suggestions toward this? Is this realistic? Is this supported by current Karambit training?

I'd be very interested in hearing what others think about this concept to aid in firearm weapon retention, vis-a-vis law enforcement defensive tactics. In addition if anyone is familiar with an already existing training program addressing that exact concept I would be most grateful to be pointed in the right direction.

 

[jks9199]

It's a neat idea, and I saw a knife recently that seems almost designed along those lines. It's not exactly a kerambit, but it's not real far off, either.

But I have to question whether it's practical in reality. Somebody's going for your gun, and you're only going to use one hand to hold the gun, while the guy's struggling, hitting, pulling, and more -- and you're going to fish a knife out of your belt and use it... Even given that the basic motion is functionally simple (kerambits are great in that regard), it seems like a lot. Even more if you're using some form of folding kerambit...

Best I can suggest is to get or make a practice knife, find a willing partner, and give it a shot!

 

[kailat]

THE KBAR TDI knife is exactly what your looking for. As a police officer I carry this specific blade. I've yet to ever have to use it, but if and when the time were to arise i'd be suffice to say it would be a great tool.

Let me see if Ican locate a pic of it for you!

http://www.google.com/products?hl=e...a=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

This is a great knife designd just for LEO...


I used to carry a folding-lockback karambit. It was an awesome blade I loved how it had the kentic opening when it was pulled out of the pocket..It was a pretty high dollar blade, however the clip broke off and It kept me from carrying it, then not much later after that I must of misplaced it... so instead of replacing it w/ another high dollar blade just to loose or break again,, I purchased the rather inexpensive TDI by Kabar. I"ve been extremely pleased w/ the design of the carry for this specific knife. Its feel is awesome, the fixed design also is great.. I give this knife a def 2 thumbs up...

good luck

 

[sgtmac_46]

It's a neat idea, and I saw a knife recently that seems almost designed along those lines. It's not exactly a kerambit, but it's not real far off, either.

But I have to question whether it's practical in reality. Somebody's going for your gun, and you're only going to use one hand to hold the gun, while the guy's struggling, hitting, pulling, and more -- and you're going to fish a knife out of your belt and use it... Even given that the basic motion is functionally simple (kerambits are great in that regard), it seems like a lot. Even more if you're using some form of folding kerambit...

Best I can suggest is to get or make a practice knife, find a willing partner, and give it a shot!

I've trained quite a variety of ways on weapon retention, but what it always comes down to with a committed attack is this....if they manage to get their hand on the holster, it becomes a protracted struggle over the gun.

Many systems train to grab the gun, hold the retention mechanism closed and the gun in the holster, while striking with the other hand. Folks are tough, and punches and strikes thrown from that distance, especially without twist-turning the body, aren't really effective.

The other method of dealing with the gun grab is both hands on the weapon, and tight turns to try and pry the hands off. Again, sometimes effective, but once the hand is committed on the and at such close proximity it sometimes becomes impossible to spin.

I've actually played with this concept, and it does work with a good retention holster.....pin the gun with the right hand so that the retention mechanism cannot be over powered, and then access the knife with the left.

But my transition from role-playing in the gym phase to actually developing any sort of 'system' is in it's earliest infancy.


A few real world scenarios, recently an Officer I know was attacked on a traffic stop by a methamphetamine addled suspect who went immediately for his firearm. He was able to keep his gun, but it was an exhausting struggle that lasted for nearly 3 minutes of bouncing against cars before, fortunately, the suspects passenger actually intervened and helped the officer. During this time the officer was doing everything he could think of to get this guy off him and his gun, specifically striking him in the head with his free hand. The strikes didn't phase this guy.

As an LEO trainer that got me thinking....what would be the most effective way of getting this guy off the gun. One way that came up was a Karambit style curved blade to cut the support system of the arms and render the hands inoperable.

 

[sgtmac_46]

THE KBAR TDI knife is exactly what your looking for. As a police officer I carry this specific blade. I've yet to ever have to use it, but if and when the time were to arise i'd be suffice to say it would be a great tool.

Let me see if Ican locate a pic of it for you!

http://www.google.com/products?hl=e...a=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

This is a great knife designd just for LEO...


I used to carry a folding-lockback karambit. It was an awesome blade I loved how it had the kentic opening when it was pulled out of the pocket..It was a pretty high dollar blade, however the clip broke off and It kept me from carrying it, then not much later after that I must of misplaced it... so instead of replacing it w/ another high dollar blade just to loose or break again,, I purchased the rather inexpensive TDI by Kabar. I"ve been extremely pleased w/ the design of the carry for this specific knife. Its feel is awesome, the fixed design also is great.. I give this knife a def 2 thumbs up...

good luck

Good advice. That's actually a blade i've actually glanced at, but it very much has the kind of curved cutting edge that I have in mind. I'll be giving it a closer look.

It certainly may be the case that a sabre or hammer grip may be more effective at reaching the vital points of the arms than a reverse Karambit grip. In which case the TDI design may be superior to the traditional Karambit. It's something that will require some experimentation.

 

[jks9199]

I've not been really impressed by any weapon retention tactics I've seen for when they've grabbed the gun in the holster; they all seem to amount to "keep the bad guy from getting the gun out of the holster and hang on for dear life!" Problems: if both my hands are on the gun, I can't protect myself, I can't use the radio to call for back-up, and I'm just hanging on. The one hand and whale away approach... well, you've only got ONE hand on it... and anyone grabbing for a cop's gun is either seriously intent on hurting you or so drunk/high/effed up that they just won't particularly respond to the punches.

It's definitely something I and others need to work on... There's gotta be a better way. Maybe the kerambit idea is it... Like I said, it's definitely worth experimenting with.

 

[tellner]

There's a lot of knives that a cop might carry. I'm not sure the kerambit makes sense. It's pretty much useless for anything except messing people up. And even there it's only prominent because it's gotten some recent hype. In Indonesia it's mostly a murder weapon - come up behind someone and jab him in the kidney. It can only be used effectively in one or two ways.

Some sort of short knife - folder or fixed - with a good grip that is suitable for everyday utility tasks would be a better choice. The TDI recommended earlier isn't bad. It's not the Unholy Ichor of Great Cthulhu, but there are worse.

 

[theletch1]

Destroying the underlying structure of the grabbing hand really shouldn't require a specialized blade. Any blade with which you are comfortable and are able to deploy in a quick and efficient manner, if sharp enough, should be able to slice all the way to the bone. A cut that deep should render the grabbing hand useless.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I like the Kbar TDI knife. It is a nice functional blade that is easy to work with. I use mine just about every day opening boxes, etc. In a pinch it would be a dangerous tool in a violent encounter.

Like Tellner though I do not believe it is the end all be all of bladed tools but a good one.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Destroying the underlying structure of the grabbing hand really shouldn't require a specialized blade. Any blade with which you are comfortable and are able to deploy in a quick and efficient manner, if sharp enough, should be able to slice all the way to the bone. A cut that deep should render the grabbing hand useless.

The problem is that a straight sharp blade MAY cut the underlying structure....but i've been more impressed with the particular type of cutting power of a forward swept blade that can dig under skin much like a talon and more or less rip through muscles and tendons. In the above described situation it is what I think may be called for.

I was inspired in my exploration by the work Sayoc Kali and a video on the Karambit that they made. The forward swept blade seems to 'stick' in the wound track digging through tissue as it's violently pulled back, where as a straight sharp blade, while causing deep laceration, my not cause the kind of wound tract i'm looking for to end the confrontation.

As I said the arguments that a Karambit or other blade of similar forward swept design are very limited in their application is compelling......but the scenario outline at this point I feel may be where it excels.

Thanks for the input guys, lots to think about!

 

[sgtmac_46]

I like the Kbar TDI knife. It is a nice functional blade that is easy to work with. I use mine just about every day opening boxes, etc. In a pinch it would be a dangerous tool in a violent encounter.

Like Tellner though I do not believe it is the end all be all of bladed tools but a good one.

As I pointed out i'm not looking for an all purpose blade, but one that excels in this limited application. A general purpose blade has to do all things reasonably well, a jack of all trades so to speak. But my purposes here are narrow. I think the TDI may actually be the optimal blade for my purposes.

 

[sgtmac_46]

There's a lot of knives that a cop might carry. I'm not sure the kerambit makes sense. It's pretty much useless for anything except messing people up. And even there it's only prominent because it's gotten some recent hype. In Indonesia it's mostly a murder weapon - come up behind someone and jab him in the kidney. It can only be used effectively in one or two ways.

Some sort of short knife - folder or fixed - with a good grip that is suitable for everyday utility tasks would be a better choice. The TDI recommended earlier isn't bad. It's not the Unholy Ichor of Great Cthulhu, but there are worse.

Again, I currently carry a solid pocket folder of Benchmade design with the neo-Tanto style blade. It's an excellent utility and I have no intention of replacing it with the Karambit or TDI. My choice in choosing a blade style with a forward swept 'talon' design is that the task is extremely specific. I feel in a struggle slices from a forward swept talon like blade are less likely to get deflected to more or less superficial wounds than a straight sharp blade.

I'm beginning to view the TDI as the path to go here, but i'm going to continue to experiment with both designs.

Thanks for the input, Tellner!

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've not been really impressed by any weapon retention tactics I've seen for when they've grabbed the gun in the holster; they all seem to amount to "keep the bad guy from getting the gun out of the holster and hang on for dear life!" Problems: if both my hands are on the gun, I can't protect myself, I can't use the radio to call for back-up, and I'm just hanging on. The one hand and whale away approach... well, you've only got ONE hand on it... and anyone grabbing for a cop's gun is either seriously intent on hurting you or so drunk/high/effed up that they just won't particularly respond to the punches.

It's definitely something I and others need to work on... There's gotta be a better way. Maybe the kerambit idea is it... Like I said, it's definitely worth experimenting with.

Absolutely! It's certainly a problem. One of the 'new' responses is to pull the Taser X26 carried on the left side while defending the gun takeaway attempt, but even this is of limited success as the Taser dart spread at that range is too close to guarantee incapacitation and requires an aggressive drive-stun follow up.

And as you point out, the 'whale away' with the support hand approach is mostly an effort in futility (though from my experience it's the most likely response if another one isn't trained). Personally my unarmed response would be to attempt to gouge the guys eye out with my thumb.....but even that's easier said than done in a dynamic encounter where he may duck his head low to prevent you reaching his eyes.

 

[jks9199]

Absolutely! It's certainly a problem. One of the 'new' responses is to pull the Taser X26 carried on the left side while defending the gun takeaway attempt, but even this is of limited success as the Taser dart spread at that range is too close to guarantee incapacitation and requires an aggressive drive-stun follow up.

And as you point out, the 'whale away' with the support hand approach is mostly an effort in futility (though from my experience it's the most likely response if another one isn't trained). Personally my unarmed response would be to attempt to gouge the guys eye out with my thumb.....but even that's easier said than done in a dynamic encounter where he may duck his head low to prevent you reaching his eyes.

Yep... I'm thinking about options. Gonna have take a red gun sans fingerguard and play some...

I really think the best option is to prevent it from happening (awareness, control of distance, etc.) -- but we can't count on that. I'm kind of wondering what would happen with an aggressive roll INTO the bad guy. Not just bump, but try to knock him over as you hit him... Or an equally forceful back roll...

The headache with the Taser is real simple... We don't all have them! I could see using the combined shot/drive stun approach, but I can see a few possible complications. (Not going to go into them in depth; it's drifting a bit off topic...)

 

[KenpoTex]

Well made arguments have been that the Karambit is a limited use weapon. In the context i'm wishing to discuss it, however, that limited role becomes it's primary role, specifically as a supplement to the firearm and an aid in it's retention.

Allow me to present the scenario as i'm working on it right now.....a fixed-blade karambit in the style of the Emerson fixed blade carried on the belt on the support side. In the event of a gun takeaway attempt, the Karambit would be drawn and used to cut the attacker off of the grab attempt by slicing tendons, nerves and muscles of the attackers arms while the dominant hand maintains strong grip on the gun in combination with an effective retention holster.

As such the reach and versatility of other knife designs are not a real issue of advantage here. The attacker has placed himself in extreme close proximity, grappling range so to speak. He has also extended his arms in order to reach the officers sidearm.

What is at the core of my thinking in view of the Karambit is it's ability to dig under and sever nerves, muscles and tendons. Deep penetration of organs is not an issue in the above scenario as i've seen men on the street who have been stabbed in the liver and lungs continue to be able to struggle at full power for up to a minute or more. My goal in the above situation is to immediately destroy the underlying structure of the attackers arms by attacking directly the nerves, muscles and tendons, thereby immediately destroying his ability to remove the firearm from the officers holster by taking away the voluntary use of his hands. In the above scenario I do not want to have to rely on blood loss and vital organ damage during a prolonged struggle to end the attackers threat.

I'd be very interested in hearing what others think about this concept to aid in firearm weapon retention, vis-a-vis law enforcement defensive tactics. In addition if anyone is familiar with an already existing training program addressing that exact concept I would be most grateful to be pointed in the right direction.

I personally like the TDIs better than Kerambits because I feel that they aren't as "task-specific." In addition to being powerful slashers, they also have some pretty serious thrusting ability either in forward or reverse grip.

However, after spending quite a bit of time experimenting with a variety of small fixed-blades for "weak side" carry, I have personally settled on the push-dagger as my tool of choice for the following reasons:

• Familiar movement: anyone who has trained in a striking art like boxing, karate, tkd, etc. knows how to punch. The PD just makes your punches even more devastating. Think about how often boxers land their jab...pretty often right? Now put a 3" dagger on the end of that jab and suddenly you've gone from annoying to deadly.
• Gross motor movements: When talking about using a weak-side tool in a weapon-retention situation, we've already got enough problems (like the ******* hanging off our gun). Rather than complicated techniques or slashing away at the guy (possibly injuring ourself), simply draw the PD and start punching the guy.
• Potential for damage: I've never been a believer in the effectiveness of "biomechanical cutting." I don't want to start a debate, but I've seen/read/heard enough anecdotal evidence and opinions from medical professionals that I have my doubts as to how effective it really is. That being the case, I feel that rather than trying to take out his gripping ability, you'd be better served trying to take out HIM. Really, which is going to be more of a deterrant: slashing away at his muscles and tendons, or putting a bunch of 3-4" deep holes in his face and chest with a PD? Just for a few examples of the power you can generate with this tool: One member on another forum put a blunt trainer through the motorcycle-helmet of his training partner (luckily, the knife went in at an angle and didn't hit the guy's head...they quit actually striking each other with the trainers after that incident). Another member has tested live-blade versions on the skulls of wild pigs and reports no trouble putting the blade through the skull. I have tested both the push-dagger and TDI by stabbing into a phone-book lying on the floor and got more depth of penetration with the push-dagger than with the TDI, or for that matter, a full-power hammerfist type stab with a conventional fixed-blade.

The nice thing is that we in Missouri can carry push-daggers, I have a buddy who works for a nearby Police Dept. that carries one on his duty belt behind his mag-pouches at about 11:00. According to him, there are a few other officers in the area that use a similar setup.

I carry a singe-edged Cold Steel SafeKeeper III at 11:00 and have found it to be very fast and positive to get into action. I also have the Safe Keeper II which is the double-edged big-brother to the previous knife. I'd recommend either Safe Keeper or Safe Maker series (all of them on this page, just scroll down...different sizes available and the Safe Keepers can be found for less than $30). You might also look at the Benchmade CBK

 

[sgtmac_46]

I personally like the TDIs better than Kerambits because I feel that they aren't as "task-specific." In addition to being powerful slashers, they also have some pretty serious thrusting ability either in forward or reverse grip.

However, after spending quite a bit of time experimenting with a variety of small fixed-blades for "weak side" carry, I have personally settled on the push-dagger as my tool of choice for the following reasons:

• Familiar movement: anyone who has trained in a striking art like boxing, karate, tkd, etc. knows how to punch. The PD just makes your punches even more devastating. Think about how often boxers land their jab...pretty often right? Now put a 3" dagger on the end of that jab and suddenly you've gone from annoying to deadly.
• Gross motor movements: When talking about using a weak-side tool in a weapon-retention situation, we've already got enough problems (like the ******* hanging off our gun). Rather than complicated techniques or slashing away at the guy (possibly injuring ourself), simply draw the PD and start punching the guy.
• Potential for damage: I've never been a believer in the effectiveness of "biomechanical cutting." I don't want to start a debate, but I've seen/read/heard enough anecdotal evidence and opinions from medical professionals that I have my doubts as to how effective it really is. That being the case, I feel that rather than trying to take out his gripping ability, you'd be better served trying to take out HIM. Really, which is going to be more of a deterrant: slashing away at his muscles and tendons, or putting a bunch of 3-4" deep holes in his face and chest with a PD? Just for a few examples of the power you can generate with this tool: One member on another forum put a blunt trainer through the motorcycle-helmet of his training partner (luckily, the knife went in at an angle and didn't hit the guy's head...they quit actually striking each other with the trainers after that incident). Another member has tested live-blade versions on the skulls of wild pigs and reports no trouble putting the blade through the skull. I have tested both the push-dagger and TDI by stabbing into a phone-book lying on the floor and got more depth of penetration with the push-dagger than with the TDI, or for that matter, a full-power hammerfist type stab with a conventional fixed-blade.

The nice thing is that we in Missouri can carry push-daggers, I have a buddy who works for a nearby Police Dept. that carries one on his duty belt behind his mag-pouches at about 11:00. According to him, there are a few other officers in the area that use a similar setup.

I carry a singe-edged Cold Steel SafeKeeper III at 11:00 and have found it to be very fast and positive to get into action. I also have the Safe Keeper II which is the double-edged big-brother to the previous knife. I'd recommend either Safe Keeper or Safe Maker series (all of them on this page, just scroll down...different sizes available and the Safe Keepers can be found for less than $30). You might also look at the Benchmade CBK

I've got one of each of those knives, and I actually carry a Safe Maker on paracord around my kneck.

All good advice. I'm going to have do some serious 'playing' with the concept and some others.

 

[Drac]

THE KBAR TDI knife is exactly what your looking for. As a police officer I carry this specific blade. I've yet to ever have to use it, but if and when the time were to arise i'd be suffice to say it would be a great tool.

Yep,a great knife..I carry one...

 

[dbain]

Per your original question, the karambit is exactly what you are asking after. The weapon is designed for limb-destructions and close-quarter biomechanical movements to disable/kill an assailant when you don't have time for the "fancy crap."

In your SPECIFIC situation, you would have two basic options with a karambit carried "weak side (a misnomer if there ever was one);" kill or do not kill.

To kill, deployment and strike are a single motion from an outside angle utilizing a reversegrip with the cutting-edge outward- an arc up and across the throat with your cutting motion starting at his "external" jugular and ripping through the entire throat to sever the jugular, carotid and windpipe for an instantaneous resolution to the conflict. The same can be done when gripping in a forward grip, but you would have to mount the blade somewhere on your back, say 4 oclock to approximately 7 oclock so that you could grab and deploy the knife with the palm away from the body for a draw.

To not kill, your options down this tree are markedly different. You have almost limitless options for disabling strikes, but most of these are still going to be fairly lethal, as you will end up severing tendons and arteries while disabling the extended limb you are fighting for control of the firearm.
You can:
(reverse grip) Rip the off-hand pectoral muscle to the clavicle by starting from the armpit and ripping in an uppercut-esque motion toward the assailant's chin. This will disable the assailant's weak-side and will, at the very least, stop him from attacking you WHILE trying to wrest your gun away. After this you can sink the claw thumb-down into the clavicle cavity of the abdomen and utilize the hooked-nature as a lever to force the opponent to a knee and away from your gun or down into an oncoming knee ot the face. If that doesn't make him forget about your gun, I'm not sure what will, but with a karambit, I guarentee you'll have the options at hand to find out.
(forward grip) Draw and arc for a limb-destruction of the extended-arm's bicep, severing both the tendon and the artery in (hopefully) a single cutting motion as you rip through his bicep. This should render his extended-limb useless, but in case it doesn't, you have the ability to come right back up the same arm in a thumb-down dig-cut to the interior of the forearm, which should then disable any and all grip strength if he still has some left. If he STILL tries for the weapon with that same limb, sink the claw of the karambit into the space between the bones of the forearm on the outside of his extended limb and wrench his arm away from your gun. This will also (hopefully) hyper-extend his arm, which should make his brand new wound-channels all the larger. (this works just as well with minor modification of the cutting directions in reverse-grip as well. instead of down-up-down, go up-down-up on the same limb.)

These are just two (three?) options for limb destructions that I literally just came up with while thinking about your situation in regards to the unique characteristics of a karambit's blade. What's more, these are predicated upon the idea that you're using a single-edged karambit and not a double-edged. The double is FAR more deadly than the single, and you have many more options available to you in terms of compliance and/or lethality.

Further-still, your CARRY options are greater. Do you want a single-edged karambit double-edged? How large do you want the edge radius to be? Karambits, GOOD karambits, are not cheap but they are most definitely worth it when you are fighting for your life. If you are looking for a truly multiple-use blade when it comes to defense, look no further. This blade not only does it all, but does it all intuitively because of the mind's capacity to understand it as a claw and not as a tool that you have to employ.

This, of course, is all theoretical, and your best weapon is training. ANY WEAPON on your rig that you do not REGULARLY train with is just one more dangerous thing someone else can get their hands on. No matter what you decide to go with, no matter how much is spent, the thing you cannot buy is an understanding of how to use your implement- that comes with time and training. Mostly with the training.

my $0.02,
Devon

 

[Baphomet]

Good post dbain. Another aspect of such a scenario to consider is weapon retention. In the aforementioned situation you would be forced to retain your firearm, and retain and use your knife. As we all know, blood makes a knife's handle extremely slick, regardless of the handle material. A karambit can only aid in retention given the ring on it.

That said, once you have cut your attacker and caused them to release your pistol, it is likely that you will draw it in order to force the attacker to stay down.....when that happens, where does your knife go? Do you drop it and give your attacker another weapon, do you sheath it, use your gun with one hand, or attempt to drop into a weaver shooting stance? In that situation, it might be adviseable to drop into a weaver stance, using both hands to control the pistol. With a karambit, there's less of an issue in that transition, as the knife can remain in your hand while in such a stance.

Hopefully my point came accross in all of my rambling .

 

[shujika]

As I am just entering a question.......Doesn't this reflect more on the “taught” handgun retention tactics? (or Lack thereof) Than on whether (Yet another) item should be included on a duty belt? I'm familiar with (most of) what's taught to the majority of departments, and “over all” they are “lacking”.