Laser eye beams. A thought exercise.

[skribs]

I believe you are adding a lot of inference because you don't like what he has to say. I read all the same threads and I have seen literally 0 of those things.

Like, in your example, you failed to mention those are two different kinds of arm bars being discussed. On the ground it's a high percentage move that requires knowing some ground defense to avoid
Where as a standing arm bar pretty much only works on a cooperating partner.

Everything you just said was wrong.

I am not adding inference because I don't like what he has to say.
I did mention the differences.
It doesn't only work against a cooperating partner.

Of course, you would side with DB, because you share a lot of his same faults. If I remember right, you're the one that saw a video of UFC eye pokes, where in nearly every clip the fighter that got poked in the eye was reduced to cowering blindly, and said they were still able to fight.

The difference is you normally stay out of arguments unless you're brought into them, where he actively goes in and bashes every art he doesn't like.

 

[Martial D]

If by faults you mean I also require evidence for claims, than guilty as charged.

I could say faith based beliefs are a fault as well. I guess what qualifies as a fault depends on how one processes the world around them.

As per your thing about eye pokes and standing arm bars that you bring up in every thread we exchange in, we've been over that too, ad nauseam.

But to refresh your memory.....again

A: my point was that getting poked in the eye doesn't damage the body to the point that the pokee can't physically continue. That's a fact, not an opinion.

A1: the guy that understands timing and distance will be better at eye pokes than the guy that only does cooperative drills.

B: Unlike yourself, I have no traditional curriculum to adhere to or defend. My head instructor is an ex pro fighter that also happens to be a 3rd black in tkd.

We've played with the tkd variants on the standing arm bar. If you actually get caught with that you have made a huge mistake or slipped on a banana peel.

I get that you might catch a guy that doesn't know what he is doing or very drunk, but anything works on those guys. Why even defend a technique that only works on those guys? It seems to be a sort of counterproductive brand loyalty to me, but I'm sure you see it differently.

This will be the last time I respond to you about eye pokes and or standing arm bars.

 

[Buka]

I have found that when a person presents information, or an opinion, in a less than charismatic manner, that person's information/opinion is dismissed in totality.

I believe that dismissal is a mistake.

 

[skribs]

A: my point was that getting poked in the eye doesn't damage the body to the point that the pokee can't physically continue. That's a fact, not an opinion.

And yet, in the video of them being used in the UFC, nearly every fighter crumpled immediately when their eye was poked.
3:01 - the fighter completely collapses like he's been KO'd. If the other fighter didn't stop, he could easily have taken his back. Or if this wasn't the UFC with UFC rules, throw some kicks to the gut, or throw some downward strikes to the spine, neck or back of the head.
4:58 - the fighter turns away and collapses like he's been KO'd. There had been several pokes before - each one he closed his eyes and turned away (but the fighter poking him didn't follow up). This time he follows up and the stop the fight, because there's no way he can fight back. I'll come back to the idea that it took several eye pokes in a second.
5:58 - turns his back, no protection at all, and the ref has to stop it. If the ref doesn't get involved, that's a RNC or some punches to the back of the head.

If you think any of those fighters could have continued, you're as blind as they are.

Coming back to the fighter that took several pokes before collapsing. This doesn't mean eyepokes are ineffective. If it did, then every strike and every submission move would be ineffective, too, because none of those are 100%.

The fact is these techniques are dangerous, because they can really easily cause significant damage. A busted elbow or knee you can recover from (look at most football players for examples of that). Concussions add up. But one bad situation from an eye poke and your depth perception is gone for life.

B: the guy that understands timing and distance will be better at eye pokes than the guy that only does cooperative drills.

First off, where is this rule written that you can only train eye pokes or distance and timing? It's things like this why I say you have the same flaws as DB. You can spar with conservative techniques, and train eye pokes in a compliance setting. Best of both worlds.

An eye poke doesn't have to be thrown like a punch. You can scratch someone's eyes without the need to accelerate your hand. It can be used from pretty much any position where your hands can reach someone's face. Tied up in the clinch? Instead of throwing punches that barely land, jam your fingers in their eyes. Going for a choke and your opponent keeps his chin down? Abandon the choke and rake his eyes. Threw a punch and your opponent dodged it? Rather than retreat your hand, rake your hand across his face and go for the eyes. This is the one I saw in a few of those fights in the video above.

We've played with the tkd variants on the standing arm bar. If you actually get caught with that you have made a huge mistake or slipped on a banana peel.

We have several different limb destructions based on how our opponent falls when we take them down. The standing arm bar is if they fall in a position that would facilitate that technique. If that submission is not there, I'll use another one. The same is true of any art with submissions. If the opening isn't there, you're not going to make it work. So you have to have trained other techniques or other transitions to make it work.

I get that you might catch a guy that doesn't know what he is doing or very drunk, but anything works on those guys. Why even defend a technique that only works on those guys? It seems to be a sort of counterproductive brand loyalty to me, but I'm sure you see it differently.

There are a lot of techniques I've seen online that wouldn't even work in those situations. You've made two boxes of "what works in MMA" and "what doesn't work in MMA". This is a good set of boxes for your training for MMA. It's not accurate when you lump everything that doesn't work in MMA into the same category.

For example, I just watched a TKD video of strikes, where they show several bad ideas. Strikes to the sternum instead of solar plexus, strikes to the hardest parts of the skull, strikes with fists in ways such you're more likely to dislocate your own finger than cause any real damage. These strikes are not likely to work even in the situations you describe. I'm not training for a UFC match. I'm training for TKD sparring rules, and to defend myself against the most likely skill level of an attacker. So what if it wouldn't work in UFC? That's not what I'm training for.

 

[skribs]

I have found that when a person presents information, or an opinion, in a less than charismatic manner, that person's information/opinion is dismissed in totality.

I believe that dismissal is a mistake.

Can you explain what you mean by "in a less than charismatic manner"?

 

[drop bear]

This is rich, coming from someone who routinely makes false claims about others and says (essentially), "Prove me wrong, or I'm right."

You stack up logical fallacies, wrap them in biased thinking, and work hard to make it sound logical.

That sounds like a false claim right there.

And by the way. Not a logical fallacy.

Because Hitchens razor.
Hitchens's razor - Wikipedia


So when you say "coming from someone who routinely makes false claims about others and says (essentially), "Prove me wrong, or I'm right"

And you can't back that up. I can turn around and say nope. It straight up doesn't count.

 

[drop bear]

I have found that when a person presents information, or an opinion, in a less than charismatic manner, that person's information/opinion is dismissed in totality.

I believe that dismissal is a mistake.

It is a much easier life to be charismatic than honest.

 

[drop bear]

Your discussions have nuance?

Yeah. I am playing chess when everyone else is playing checkers basically.

 

[drop bear]

No, you asked how do I discern your honesty therefore you are obviously want me to discern it.
Therefore you need to send me your physical address. I'll happily come to you with my leather and view your lasering of the leather (with the proper safety equipment of course) unless you actually don't want me to believe you or to learn from you which is fine as well.

Absolutely. You can come train with me and in ten years you could have laser eye beams and therefore all the proof you need.

 

[drop bear]

Ok Bear answer me this; is there Anyone currently practicing a martial art that is Not getting taken?

If you work out this puzzle. Nobody practising martial arts would be getting taken.

This exercise is Mabye one of the most fundamental aspects to being good at martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

This is because he makes a lot of these kinds of posts when he's losing an argument in another thread. He takes the rant to a new thread where he can start and control the narrative. That's why what counts as evidence changes depending on what narrative he's making that day.

It also doesn't help that his standards are a little bit insane. UFC is all that matters, real world data doesn't. (Except in threads where it supports his argument). Even then, sometimes he's off. I've seen him post data, and then I've seen him make arguments that contradict that data in another thread. His data shows that arm bars are the third most popular submission in UFC, but then in another thread he says that to beat an armbar you just have to "not be crap".

He comes in, acts like the arbiter of martial arts, that only he knows what works and what doesn't. And if there's a technique he doesn't understand, he tries to bury you in paperwork to prove to him that you can do it. And of course he would only be satisfied if I were to use that technique to become a UFC champion. Because he wouldn't be able to verify it's true effectiveness unless it's against a UFC champion.

It doesn't seem that he calls people out based on facts. He calls people out based on his narrow-minded opinions and impossible standards.

It is because you don't understand the conversation.

Which is why I started this thread.

 

[drop bear]

And yet, in the video of them being used in the UFC, nearly every fighter crumpled immediately when their eye was poked.
3:01 - the fighter completely collapses like he's been KO'd. If the other fighter didn't stop, he could easily have taken his back. Or if this wasn't the UFC with UFC rules, throw some kicks to the gut, or throw some downward strikes to the spine, neck or back of the head.
4:58 - the fighter turns away and collapses like he's been KO'd. There had been several pokes before - each one he closed his eyes and turned away (but the fighter poking him didn't follow up). This time he follows up and the stop the fight, because there's no way he can fight back. I'll come back to the idea that it took several eye pokes in a second.
5:58 - turns his back, no protection at all, and the ref has to stop it. If the ref doesn't get involved, that's a RNC or some punches to the back of the head.

If you think any of those fighters could have continued, you're as blind as they are.

Coming back to the fighter that took several pokes before collapsing. This doesn't mean eyepokes are ineffective. If it did, then every strike and every submission move would be ineffective, too, because none of those are 100%.

The fact is these techniques are dangerous, because they can really easily cause significant damage. A busted elbow or knee you can recover from (look at most football players for examples of that). Concussions add up. But one bad situation from an eye poke and your depth perception is gone for life.

Exactly. Now imagine if those fighters were hit with laser eye beams. They would probably die.

This is exactly the evidence that supports my technique. I am glad you agree with me.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Yeah. I am playing chess when everyone else is playing checkers basically.

Some are playing go when you are playing chess.

 

[drop bear]

For example, I just watched a TKD video of strikes, where they show several bad ideas. Strikes to the sternum instead of solar plexus, strikes to the hardest parts of the skull, strikes with fists in ways such you're more likely to dislocate your own finger than cause any real damage. These strikes are not likely to work even in the situations you describe. I'm not training for a UFC match. I'm training for TKD sparring rules, and to defend myself against the most likely skill level of an attacker. So what if it wouldn't work in UFC? That's not what I'm training for.

Another exelent argument. My laser eye beams do not work in MMA because they are not designed for MMA.

So that is the proof they work right there.

 

[dvcochran]

If you work out this puzzle. Nobody practising martial arts would be getting taken.

This exercise is Mabye one of the most fundamental aspects to being good at martial arts.

You are going to have to say that another way because it did not make sense at all.

 

[dvcochran]

That sounds like a false claim right there.

And by the way. Not a logical fallacy.

Because Hitchens razor.
Hitchens's razor - Wikipedia


So when you say "coming from someone who routinely makes false claims about others and says (essentially), "Prove me wrong, or I'm right"

And you can't back that up. I can turn around and say nope. It straight up doesn't count.

You don’t read that what Gerry is saying?
You are Hitchen’s razor in every post.

 

[Buka]

It is a much easier life to be charismatic than honest.

It is indeed, especially when one wants easy. But sometimes it's more productive to be a little bit of both.

 

[Buka]

Can you explain what you mean by "in a less than charismatic manner"?

I'll try. I find @drop bear very articulate. And very direct. Sometimes being very direct is taken as something else. Hey, to each his own.

The first time I ever saw Martial Arts training I knew I wanted to do that for the rest of my life. But if a fifty year old me looked at the eighteen year old me saying that, he'd say, "Sure, kid, like you have any idea of what the hell you want in your short ash life." Who knew the teenager was actually on to something?

I consider Martial Arts a physical venture. A very physical venture. I'm pretty sure most of us find it a whole lot more than that. Maybe an "adventure" would describe it better. But sometimes we forget some of the physical and latch onto the more esoteric qualities of the Arts. And don't get me wrong, I love the esoteric side, I really do, some of it is just the balls. But to me, there's always the physical first. And the physical is not only the hardest to do, it's the side of things that will save your bacon when things get real, when things get socially ugly, when bad people want to hurt or kill you. If you don't have enough physical - you be in deep water.

As much as I've argued with @drop bear over the years, the arguments, at least on my side of the arguments, haven't been on what was said, more on how it was said or taken. It's pretty much why I've argued with anyone on our forum.

As an example, and bear with me on this, I've been friends with numerous criminals over the years. Some are dead now, some are completely reformed, some are still criminals. But they taught me something way back in the early eighties that I never forgot - they practice how to fight against techniques that police use. They train it hard, they have plenty of time to do so because they're locked up. They just have to practice on the sly. It's why nobody I know will post DT stuff on youtube. What, you think bad guys don't know youtube? As a side note, you know what else the sons o beaches do? They study google earth to case houses. They'll study the front, the sides and the corresponding back block. Damn clever, some of these pricks.

Anyway, as a generality, I've always found that a fair percentage of Martial Arts practitioners who have studied an art, and THEN found another art that was more physically practical for them and their uses, will not only dismiss the previous art, but will sort of develop what I call the "Martial Police" attitude, at least on-line. In the brick and mortar world it's easy, you just say," let's go to the gym, please show me" But we can't do that here.

Drop Bear, as well as many others, make some really good points on fighting, on practical self defense. Points I agree with. I just feel that when they are presented in somewhat of a naked manner, they are frequently dismissed. I don't think they should be. At least not out of hand.

As far as MMA goes, I really like MMA. And I trained in a cage long before most of you ever saw one in person. I just wish they let you grab the cage with your fingers, I've always thought that.

 

[skribs]

"Martial Police" attitude, at least on-line.

This is exactly what I take issue with. This is a site that supports:

• JKD
• MMA
• BJJ
• Wrestling
• Boxing
• Kickboxing
• Kenpo
• Tai Chi
• Wing Chun
• Balintawak
• Arnis
• Aikido
• Judo
• Karate
• Ninjutsu
• Taekwondo
• Hapkido
• Tang Soo Do
• Muay Thai
• Krav Maga
• Other arts originating from China, the Philippines, Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia, Russia, the West

But according to his posts, I feel he would be over the moon if the list was more like this:

• MMA
• BJJ
• Wrestling
• Boxing
• Kickboxing
• Judo
• Muay Thai

He doesn't have any respect for any of the other arts. He's flat out told me that I don't know anything about several techniques because I haven't learned them in the sport most known for them. That I don't actually know a jab because I'm not a boxer, that I don't actually know an armbar because I'm not in BJJ or MMA. There are dozens of martial arts that this site supports, and he actively bashes the majority of them.

 

[Buka]

This is exactly what I take issue with. This is a site that supports:

• JKD
• MMA
• BJJ
• Wrestling
• Boxing
• Kickboxing
• Kenpo
• Tai Chi
• Wing Chun
• Balintawak
• Arnis
• Aikido
• Judo
• Karate
• Ninjutsu
• Taekwondo
• Hapkido
• Tang Soo Do
• Muay Thai
• Krav Maga
• Other arts originating from China, the Philippines, Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia, Russia, the West

But according to his posts, I feel he would be over the moon if the list was more like this:

• MMA
• BJJ
• Wrestling
• Boxing
• Kickboxing
• Judo
• Muay Thai

He doesn't have any respect for any of the other arts. He's flat out told me that I don't know anything about several techniques because I haven't learned them in the sport most known for them. That I don't actually know a jab because I'm not a boxer, that I don't actually know an armbar because I'm not in BJJ or MMA. There are dozens of martial arts that this site supports, and he actively bashes the majority of them.

I find it best not to let somebody live rent free in my head. If they bother me online too much I just put them on ignore for a couple months. Easy, Peasy, Japaneasy.