Larense Garrote Venezuelan Martial Art

[Mark Lynn]

In the latest Journal of Asian Martial Arts vol.12 #2 2003

There is a short but interesting article on this system of Venezuelan Stickfighting Art. The author makes reference to the similarity to the martial art systems of the Philippines.

The author makes the point that both systems (the Venezuelan and the Filipino) were impacted by several closely related items
1) Both were occupied by the Spanish for a long period of time (200-300 years).
2) Both cultures addopted techniques from the Spanish style of sword play. Or maybe I should say improved on or modified the techniques and concepts of Spanish sword play.
3) Both had their native systems outlawed and subsequently had to train in secrecy or under the cover of socio-religious plays.
4)Both used common Spanish terms to describe their weapons garrote or baston.
5) Both use a stick to train with but apply the techniques with the bolo/machete.

Anyone else seen or read the article, or heard about this system?

Also in the article one of the points that is shown is the switching of the weapon into the other hand. I remember seeing GM Remy do this alot when demonstraing his Tapi Tapi. Here though it seems that this is a main part of the system.

Any thoughts or comments on this.

 

[arnisador]

Bong Jornales of Arnis-Sikaran also emphasizes the switching of the stick.

A search on larense here will turn up several threads, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7018

Some links:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=551

 

[moromoro]

GM navarro also emphasises switching hands tholding the stick but this is when full pace contact sparring......

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by The Boar Man

Anyone else seen or read the article, or heard about this system?

Also in the article one of the points that is shown is the switching of the weapon into the other hand. I remember seeing GM Remy do this alot when demonstraing his Tapi Tapi. Here though it seems that this is a main part of the system.

Any thoughts or comments on this.

I know one of the guys who teaches this (in fact, I think it's the guy who brought it to the US and probably the guy who wrote the article, though I haven't seen the article yet).

I've only seen a very short demo of Garrote Larense. It was very interesting. To me, it looked a lot like FMA. But it did have a different flavor.

As far as the switching of hands, yes this is done in FMA. But in the Garrote Larense, it looked to me like they switched hands nearly every time they moved within the drill I saw. As I say, I saw only a very brief demo so can't really make any definitive comparisons.

The impression I got was that the principles are the same. The flavor is different. The footwork they use is not alien to FMA ... but where FMA (in my experience) favors triangles for footwork, Garrote Larense seemed to favor a rectangular stepping pattern.

I look forward to seeing more of this art.

Mike

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by pesilat
1)I know one of the guys who teaches this (in fact, I think it's the guy who brought it to the US and probably the guy who wrote the article, though I haven't seen the article yet).

2)I've only seen a very short demo of Garrote Larense. It was very interesting. To me, it looked a lot like FMA. But it did have a different flavor.

3)As far as the switching of hands, yes this is done in FMA. But in the Garrote Larense, it looked to me like they switched hands nearly every time they moved within the drill I saw. As I say, I saw only a very brief demo so can't really make any definitive comparisons.

4)The impression I got was that the principles are the same. The flavor is different. The footwork they use is not alien to FMA ... but where FMA (in my experience) favors triangles for footwork, Garrote Larense seemed to favor a rectangular stepping pattern.

I look forward to seeing more of this art.

Mike

Mike

I inserted numbers into your qoute so that I can comment on what you said and keep me in line in my thoughts.

1) The author was Bruno Cruicchi, and his asisstant in the photos was Bob Orlando.

2) This is what interested me about the article and the system. Different stick fighting systems abound around the world i.e. Hanbo in Japan, there is an Irish system and an english system (I read about them in an interesting article in Dragon Times a while back). And I'm sure a lot of others. And yet while they'll have techniques in common they are very different.

And yet this system seemed to share alot more in common to the FMA. Which per the authors view comes from the Spanish influence. If this is the case than perhaps the Spanish had a bigger influence on the FMA than is sometimes taught?

3) In the photo sequences 2 & 4 the techniques showed them switching the weapon in their hands. It brought up an interesting concept that I had not really thought of before. (I had seen GM Remy do this and even practicing his Tapi T api drills I have done this. So the idea of switching was not foriegn as much of the concept protrayed of when they switched them was what intrigued me.)

FWIW. Lets say a person is feeding a low back hand to your knee. (One player has the weapon in their right hand, and the defender has their weapon in thier left hand) In the photos they show the defender stepping in towards to strike (dodging it) as they switch the weapon into their right hand, thereby striking behind the force of the strike (palis palis, or going with the force) instead of meeting the force head on.

I thought this was an interesting way of defending this angle of attack. (This was photo sequence 4)

4) Funny thing you mention the square foot work. In the article they mention the footowrk is based on a square called "Cuadro literally translates "to square". Arrange four squares two by two, and a cross is formed in the middle." Which is what the footwork looks like a cross. However my impression of it was that it looked like triangluar pattern in that draw a line diagonally from one coner of a square/rectangle to the other and you form a triangle. But then just seeing the photos and not the system in action gives me a very limited view.

All in all again the article was to short to give you but just a brief introduction into the system. I just thought I'd post about it to find out if anyone else knew more about the system and to try and gain a better understanding of it.

Thanks for the comments
Mark

 

[Silat Junkie]

Hola Mark and Mike;

As a few of you know, I have been studying Garrote with Bruno for about 5 years now, going on 6 (I think...) and I can tell you that the footwork pattern is definately a cross. Other than the first step within the cuadro, the rest of the footwork is done 180 degrees to your last step. Additionally, as I wrote earlier on this forum, the garoteero does not rely on blocking and prefers to displace if at all possible, even to parrying. However, there are a few times when the garoteero will use a true block called a topa. In most other cases it is a combination of displacement and parrying or displacement and blocking or just displacement (the preferred method).

On another note, I have met a few other people who have been introduced to Garrote in the U.S. outside of those who were introduced by Bruno. Largely they don't practice it, but were researching the historical development of Garrote to Venezuela's history with African slaves. As I also mentioned in my previous posting, there is some rather large differences of opinions concerning the origins of Garrote.

Another interesting point of comparison to the FMA is the Garrote strikes. In Garrote, they use a similar type of angle system as the FMA, though initially I was taught it was different, upon seeing the entirety of it, it is nearly identitical. However, they use names for the striking angles that are sometimes associated with specific vital areas. For instance, Huevero (Egg breaker - take a guess), Corverro (Back of Knee), etc.

No double stick.
No stick and knife.
No knife and knife.

Later,
Sean

www.combat-silat.net

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by Silat Junkie
Hola Mark and Mike;

1) As a few of you know, I have been studying Garrote with Bruno for about 5 years now, going on 6 (I think...) and I can tell you that the footwork pattern is definately a cross. Other than the first step within the cuadro, the rest of the footwork is done 180 degrees to your last step. Additionally, as I wrote earlier on this forum, the garoteero does not rely on blocking and prefers to displace if at all possible, even to parrying. However, there are a few times when the garoteero will use a true block called a topa. In most other cases it is a combination of displacement and parrying or displacement and blocking or just displacement (the preferred method).

2) On another note, I have met a few other people who have been introduced to Garrote in the U.S. outside of those who were introduced by Bruno. Largely they don't practice it, but were researching the historical development of Garrote to Venezuela's history with African slaves. As I also mentioned in my previous posting, there is some rather large differences of opinions concerning the origins of Garrote.

3) Another interesting point of comparison to the FMA is the Garrote strikes. In Garrote, they use a similar type of angle system as the FMA, though initially I was taught it was different, upon seeing the entirety of it, it is nearly identitical. However, they use names for the striking angles that are sometimes associated with specific vital areas. For instance, Huevero (Egg breaker - take a guess), Corverro (Back of Knee), etc.

No double stick.
No stick and knife.
No knife and knife.

Later,
Sean

www.combat-silat.net

Sean

Thanks for your response. Seeing the article on the system and from reading your post I wonder if you wouldn't mind answering some more questions. I numbered your paragraphs to use as reference.

1) When you take the first step it appears that it might be on an angle and then the rear foot is brought around. Would this be correct? Is the concept/the point to be to the side of the person, and is this body position used then to off balance the attacker/feeder? Or to strike/cut etc. etc. them.

2) Not having read any of your previous postings on the history of the system, where could I find those? Or would you mind telling us again? The article mentioned the Spanish occupying the country but it mentioned nothing that I remember about African slaves.

3) On the angles of attack/feeding angles, which system where they identical to, or was this a generalized statement? In the FMA every system can have their own numbering patterns which is why I'm asking the questions.

Lastly from someone who studies the art, do you train the switching of the weapon in the hands such as I described in my last post? Is this used as a method of parrying/redirecting the strike/slash instead of blocking force to force?

Oh one thing else in the article the author descibed how they taught the evasion of the strikes, I think it was head first and the body then the feet last. I had been taught to move with the hips or the whole body as one (this is probably more so from my karate/TKD background then really my FMA training), so I've been trying to envision what the author was meaning. Could you shed some light on this for me?

Thanks for your time
Mark

 

[Silat Junkie]

Mark,

I have kept the numbering and added numbers to those items you didn't number.

1] Your understanding is correct. You start facing in a line and as a strike comes to the crown of your head you do move the lead foot on a forward angle to the outside of the attack (for the Franco drill depicted in the article). It is a short step but it is not the first thing to move. The head should be first or simultaneous with the foot. The point is to be to the outside of this attack and countering it. (Probably more of a chop than a cut per se since we are talking about machete - think... no arm.)

2] Here is the original posting http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=118521#post118521

I don't really feel like I am qualified to talk with any sincerity or depth about it since I am not a historian...

3] I did not say they were identical at any time. I said "similar type of angle system" meaning not identical, or not necessarily even close, but that it uses a related type of system for identifying angles of attack and vital structure. I have studied FMA through a Kuntao system, through the Inosanto/La Coste system, Guro W. Hock Hochheim and a bit of Guro Ernesto Presas so I am a bit familiar.

4] In most cases, the switch of hands is such that it usually enhances the body displacement but should not be seen as a necessary component. It also typically, sets up the immediate counter attack.

5] Concerning the body displacement method, you've got it right. Move the head, move the mass, then move the legs [If it's a head shot]. Kind of like a wave of movement, though they are not entirely separate, that is the basic gist of the thing. In Garrote, the stick comes fast and if you try to move the entire package each time, you WILL get hit since we are not relying on blocking. Therefore, the targeted area moves first and everything else follows. That is the primary difference between what I have seen in most FMA and most martial arts generally - the exception being silat. When you attack do you move the whole body or do you first launch the tool and then drive it in with the body? [This is rhetorical please don't answer it. Now, flip it over, and from a defensive situation {if you couldn't block} how would you move quickly enough not to get hit.]

Hope this helps.
Sean

 

[arnisador]

I find the footwork/movement discussion very interesting!

In switching hands, do you also occasionally use a two-handed swing?

 

[moromoro]

is it drill based??

i know you have names for certain strikes, but how about the defenses, what are the main defenses against the main strikes??

also some FMA are very very different from others....

also sean is it also very quick to learn like the FMA...


thanks

terry

i havent seen the article yet we are still on the first issue here.

 

[Silat Junkie]

Hello;

This will reply to the last two posts...

First, please read this: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...8521#post118521

I posted this awhile back and it answers a few of these questions.

There are no names for the defenses that I am aware of. They are considered a "set" of both offense and defense in that regard, but the "named" portion of that set is the hit or the angles.

Yes, I realize that there are differences amongst the FMA and as I posted, there are differences amongst the various Garrote lineages.

It's pretty quick to learn but takes a long time to get good at.

I have never seen a two-handed swing. Normally the free hand is being used to deliver a palm heel strike, slap, or trap the assailants weapon hand.

For some really REALLY out of date web pages on the system that I made early on in my training go here. http://rajasterlak.silat.4mg.com/garrote/training.html
This page shows the first basic drill you learn. Some of the spelling is very wrong since I don't speak Spanish. The site is dead and will not be updated. I am however, thinking of posting another more complete version of this site. It's a thought in process....

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by Silat Junkie
Mark,


3] I did not say they were identical at any time. I said "similar type of angle system" meaning not identical, or not necessarily even close, but that it uses a related type of system for identifying angles of attack and vital structure. I have studied FMA through a Kuntao system, through the Inosanto/La Coste system, Guro W. Hock Hochheim and a bit of Guro Ernesto Presas so I am a bit familiar.

Sean

Sorry for the misunderstanding on the angle system question. I think I understand now what you mean. You said you trained with Hock and GM E. Presas ever been to Texas/OK camps with GM or Hock, if so we might have crossed paths.

Anyway I checked on the thread you posted in your later posts and it's been dropped or at least I couldn't access it.

Thanks for your responses to my questions. Do you have the article in the JAMA? If so could I ask you some more questions on it?

Mark

 

[Silat Junkie]

Mark,

No problem about the angles stuff.

I have not been to his OK or TX camps. I actually stopped training with him years ago when I began to get focused on silat more and more. I trained with him when he was near me in Milwaukee and Chicago.

The thread address i gave previously didn't work, but I checked this one and it definately worked this morning.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7018&goto=newpost

I do have the article.

Sean

 

[thekuntawman]

you know before i pay any more attention to these "newly discovered" ancient arts, i want to know more about the background of the major players of those art. why i say this, because every "newly discovered" art i have seend so far, are promoted by somebody who already had a background in another art, and then they saw a book about some ancient lost art of _____ european art, now he "uncovered" the secret.

some example are the the greek "mu tau" kickboxing guy, the italian knife only martial artist (who was a student of dan inosanto), which i thought was funny to see italian "sinawali" drills, since the filipinos got there martial arts from spanish invaders. oh, and irish double stick fighting, which you can read about in a book, but the masters are old eskrima arnis kali students. lets see, then there is jkd based savate fighters and la canne masters, roman (????wtf???) gladiator style fighting, lets you know he watches movies, scottish fighting (discovered from mel gibson movies, surely), and superior pre-black people dominated era boxing.

pride can help a persons creativity, especially if he wants to reject his asian martial arts roots.

so a venezuelan art, which venezuala is nothing but a political colonial lines around south america, i dont buy it. i bet if you look at the background of the master, he was a student of asian master so in so.

i think the biggest influence spanish had to filipinos is that they forced people to learn there language and practice the religion and change names. and that they motivated people to develop there killing style more effective.

 

[Silat Junkie]

Kuntawman;

You speak pretty disrespectfully of something that you know little about. Your ignorance is overwhelming.

However, regardless of your ignorance, egocentricity, and bias, I will tell you that the art of Garrote Larense has been around for much longer than you. When exactly it was created or began its formation is unknown. If they new when it was created exactly, they would also have a pretty good idea where it was primarily derived from. However, it is NOT a "newly discovered" ancient art.

It has been around so long that it is part of the national celebration of St. Anthony (the patron saint of Venezuela) which takes place every June (by everyone in Venezuela) and is followed by a processional known as El Tamunangue. The Tamunangue is comprised of a ritualized combat/game known as La Batalla and seven other unique dances. (I have several of these on video tape but don't even think about asking me to see them since you are so disrespectful.)

Additionally, Juego de Garrote and La Battalla can be found in several regions of Venezuela: Larense, Barquismeto, and Sanare. In particular, the La Battalla of Barquismeto is very combative where it is said, that the Patron Saint is not happy unless the Jugodores battle hard enough to nearly draw blood. They must also fight until both participants are disarmed.

Additionally, there are national publications such as the "El Juego Del Garrote" booklets which were created by the Fundacion Escuela De Garrote Tocuyano, and several books written by such notable Jugadores as Maestro Eduardo Sanoja. I have a copy of at least one of the books (I am told there were two) and one of the booklets. Additionally, I have footage of Maestro Sanoja's famed teacher "El Viejo" Mercedes and of another famed Maestro, Felix Garcia, both in their 80's.

So to summarize,
*The whole of Venezuela is conspiring against some asian master or for some Venezuelan
*The different lineages of Juego de Garrote are fraudulent and conspiratorial OR spontaneously decided to formulate this idea without any basis what-so-ever and just happen to be similar

OR
* Your are totally clueless

hmmmm.... such choices.

So in your vast knowledge I suppose you also know nothing of Palo Canario? or Palo de Trinidad either?

Pride can also blind a person from seeing what is around them...

My apologies to everyone else, but this person who wont even sign their own writings is rude.

 

[Cruentus]

On the one hand, there are a lot of rip-off artists out there who study a cluster F*** of asian arts, then try to package and sell there limited knowledge in the form of some rediscovered hidden exotic art. I've seen the videos for sale, and yes, this is crap.

On the other hand, you cannot assume that this Venezualan stick fighting art is fraudulent until sufficient evidence is provided to prove this. To make the assumptions without the evidence isn't a good idea, in my opinion.

Respectfully,
PAUL
:asian:

 

[thekuntawman]

first i did not say that i assume that the venzuelan art is fraud or recently made up. what i said was i wait before i believe anything now, because of what i seen of "little known arts". i do not waste my time saying what is fraud until i see it.

but concerning what i do say is fake or who is fake, i dont think the arts are always made up. especially when there is a book that confirm that this art existed 100s of years ago, or whatever. but where something sounds fishy to me, is when a jujitsu and arnis (or hsing yi/ba gua/arnis) man, "discovers" some arts that is little known about, and say's, look how similar this art is to jujitsu and arnis! (or hsing yi/ba gua/arnis) etc.

but silat junkie, from the way you jumped at me, i can tell you have little experience in the arts, or perhaps you are just a "seminar junkie" instead surely. to just jump in there and start to throw insults when i said nothing about your art or your teacher, i believe you have low self esteem. you should do something about that.

i will say this again. if i see that the major players in this venezuela art has no background in anything similar to what he is teaching now, then i will probably be convinced. but who cares what i think anyway, the bottom line is, does this art work or not. i would think since you have an interest in the philippine arts, you would appreciate our philosophy about the art. and one thing is, you want people to doubt what you do, so you get the opportunity to prove that it does. unless, of course, you dont think that you can, then i can see why your mad.

 

[pesilat]

to just jump in there and start to throw insults when i said nothing about your art or your teacher

While you didn't directly say anything, I can see where SJ inferred that you were speaking about his instructor and the Venezuelan art given that that is the subject of this thread.

Perhaps you should have started a new thread to address your (apparently) tangential train of thought.


To address something said by SJ:

My apologies to everyone else, but this person who wont even sign their own writings is rude.

Actually, kuntawman does sign his posts. He signs them with a website. If you go to the website, you'll find info about his school and his background.

Mike

 

[Silat Junkie]

theKuntawman;

Well perhaps you didn't mean this line you wrote:
"so a venezuelan art, which venezuala is nothing but a political colonial lines around south america, i dont buy it. i bet if you look at the background of the master, he was a student of asian master so in so."

However, because you wrote it, I assume you meant it, and since that constitutes saying something about my teacher and the art, I am more than justified in calling you on it ESPECIALLY because I am in the arts.

Perhaps you should think a bit more and talk a bit less.

Sean

 

[pesilat]

Now ... putting on my MOD cap:
This thread has, overall, been very informative and productive. There's been a hiccup the past few days that seems to have been a misunderstanding (something this medium is, unfortunately, infamous for). Let's try to put that behind us and return to the fruitful discussion that was going on and keep things civil and friendly all the way around, eh?

- Mike Casto -
- MT Moderator -