Language Pt 1 : Was - Anyone heard of Gensei-Ryu?

[Pyros]

Yeah, I still don't know how to quit. :rofl:

I do know there are lots of Japanese words derived from english. Does that mean Japanese have some "genetic" relations to the west? No, but still there are some english-derived words. I would bet there are a whole lot more Chinese derived words than english derived ones. And if there are words with Chinese roots, then it is possible that they are similar to Okinawan words derived from the same roots.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Pyros
And if there are words with Chinese roots, then it is possible that they are similar to Okinawan words derived from the same roots.

Actually no it doesn’t really work like that.

I don’t think we can have a meaningful discussion about this subject since you have not studied any of the languages of the topic. If you had a working knowledge of at least Japanese then it might be possible. Quite frankly I don’t have the time to sit down and type out all the reasons why the languages are different and the cultural intricacies between them.

But if you think you know more about those languages with out ever studying any of the languages and have basically no working knowledge of them be my guest.

 

[Pyros]

Ha! Are you kidding? Ever heard of Pokemon? Anime? BTW, what is Television in Japanese? These are all english-derived loan words!

Just a tidbit quote from page http://www.joyo96.org/Katakana.html

"Katakana are now used to write loan words (foreign words brought into Japanese). Such borrowing usually occurred when the Japanese language lacked a native word to express a foreign idea. Though loan words have come from Chinese, Portuguese, Dutch and other languages. The modern post-war history of Japan's relationship with the United States has in fact led to English origin loan words being in the majority of foreign words expressed in Japanese. Hence, modern Japanese has a large number of words that English speaking people can easily recognize. As they are generally rendered in Katakana, it is quite logical for English speaking people to begin their study of written Japanese with the Katakana script."

So don't tell me there aren't chinese derived loan words in Japanese. Period.

And the next one came from here http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/lc/flgbk00/furoku1.html

"Another reason why English is important in Japan is that it is not only an international language, it is also a Japanese language. In Japan, English is no longer a "foreign" language. As a matter of fact, perhaps a quarter of the active vocabulary of modern Japanese is derived from English."

And the next one from here http://www.nclack.k12.or.us/www/languageprofiles.html

"One might call Japanese a linguistic smorgasbord. It has some traits of Pacific island languages, but its grammar more closely resembles those of Northeast Asia. Most Japanese words (especially formal) are originally from China while the common, everyday words are purely Japanese--much like formal English words are generally Latin, Greek, or French. Modern foreign influence, particularly from the United States, has triggered a deluge of English loanwords which are added almost daily to the Japanese lexicon. Japanese uses 3 different writing systems. Two of these systems (both derived from Chinese characters) contain about 50 symbols each and each symbol represents a consonant-vowel combination. The hiragana symbols are used to write native Japanese words, and the katakana symbols are used to write foreign loanwords. Chinese characters, or kanji as they are known among speakers of Japanese, are used to write Chinese words."

And some percentages from http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/japan/Writing/Speaking4.html

"When Chinese culture was introduced in the seventh and eighth centuries, the Chinese language changed the Japanese language profoundly (deeply) as it introduced new ways of thinking and new ways of expressing that thought. In fact, most Japanese words are derived from (come from) Chinese vocabulary - over sixty percent."

And then finally, let's see some info about Okinawan dialects, this quote from http://japanese.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www2.rpa.net/~joeroa/hogen.htm

"The language of Okinawa belongs to the Japanese-Ryukyuan language family which extends from Hokkaido in northern Japan to Yonaguni (73 m. off the coast of Taiwan) in the southern Ryukyus."

And from same source:

"The phonological characteristics of the Shuri dialect as compared to standard Japanese are mainly the vowel changes of the e to i and o to u. For example, the word for rain is pronounced ame in Japanese while it is pronounced ami in Shuri. In the same manner, the word for cloud is pronounced kumo in Japanese while it is pronounced kumu in Shuri. Some differences between Japnese and Shuri dialect also exist in consonants. "

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Pyros


So don't tell me there aren't chinese derived loan words in Japanese. Period.

Never said there weren't.

Ever heard of "on" or "kun" readings for kanji?

What I did say previously in a more polite you have basically no understanding of any of the languages I mentioned and therefore it is pretty pointless to discuss the topic with you unless I educate at the same time. Which I don't have the time or motivation to do.

 

[Pyros]

Well, without any education I already got you several sources indicating a majority of Japanese words come from Chinese and a distinctive amount from English as well. I also gave references to sources clearly indicating Okinawan language is actually a relative language to Japanese as far as linquistics go and showed some words that are nearly identical in Shuri dialect and standard Japanese. You have yet to produce any evidence to the contrary. Not even a single quote from a readily accessible source which would indicate in any way that the languages are not related and do not contain similar words from exact same root words in Chinese.

 

[Pyros]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
What I did say previously in a more polite you have basically no understanding of any of the languages I mentioned and therefore it is pretty pointless to discuss the topic with you unless I educate at the same time. Which I don't have the time or motivation to do.

That is nothing but an excuse. You have no need to educate me, just point me to a source that clearly says the languages are not related and don't contain any nearly identical loan words from Chinese. Just show me one such website that at least seems like any kind of authority on the issue and I drop the issue.

And just to rest my case, I direct you to following page: http://japanese.about.com/blqow22.htm

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Pyros
That is nothing but an excuse. You have no need to educate me, just point me to a source that clearly says the languages are not related and don't contain any nearly identical loan words from Chinese. Just show me one such website that at least seems like any kind of authority on the issue and I drop the issue.

All I have seen you produce is several words (todi/tuti/toude/tote) that were all from Okinawan and you thought they were from Okinawan and Japanese.

I see you have your nose totally out of joint now so here is the short "Internet" version of your education since I am not getting paid to teach you.

Japanese contains over 1900 kanji with both "on" and "kun" readings. Of those kanji only 4 are of completely Japanese origin.
The rest are variations of Chinese kanji.Of those 1900 or so kanji they have at least 2 and in some case up to 5 different ways to read them but basically around 2 ways.
One way is the “Japanese” way and the other is what is known as the “Chinese” way of pronunciation. Which isn’t really “Chinese” at all but a Sino-Japanese way to pronounce Chinese words. And are very rarely if ever the same as Okinawan.
Case in point:
My wife is Japanese and can't understand a single word when two Okinawans have a converstion using the Okinawan language...which there are 3 major versions of.
Does that give you an idea of how similar Okinawan and Japanese are?
It should.......

Are all three languages related in someway? Yes.
Did I ever say they weren't related somehow? No.
Koreans, Chinese, Okinawans, Japanese all use Chinese kanji………are they all pronounce the Chinese way?
NO.
Do they all use the same grammar?
NO.
Are the nuances for the same kanji in each language the same?
NO.
Would someone from one of those countries be able to understand another by using nothing but the spoken word?
NO.
Could they write a Chinese Kanji and be understood?
Maybe.

Sorry to be rude but when you have studied all 3 languages in question and gain some reasonable level and maybe spent as many decades as I have actually using them you and I might be able to discuss this on the same level.

Until that time you might try and be a bit more humble and learn from someone who has been there way before you instead of trying to impress me with your limited knowledge on the subject that you have gleand off the Internet.

Some people on this Board might consider me arrogant but they won’t often find me wrong…….especially on the subject of Japanese/Okinawan/Chinese languages.

 

[Pyros]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
All I have seen you produce is several words (todi/tuti/toude/tote) that were all from Okinawan and you thought they were from Okinawan and Japanese.

Well then you haven't read my posts. It figures. Well I have already mentioned twice that I gave references to Shuri->Japanese words that are nearly identical, rain and cloud, remember?

Japanese contains over 1900 kanji with both "on" and "kun" readings.

I'm not talking about characters. I'm talking about derived words. You can translitterate the words with roman alphabet if you want, the words are still derived from Chinese root words, the characters with which you write them don't matter, be them kanji or romanized.

My wife is Japanese and can't understand a single word when two Okinawans have a converstion using the Okinawan language...which there are 3 major versions of.
Does that give you an idea of how similar they are?
It should.......

Duh... Are you really that off base or are you deliberately trying to evade the issue? Do most north americans know how to speak english? Yes. Do most north americans know hot to speak latin? No. Does english derive a lot of it's words from latin? Yes. Would an average american who knows english be able to follow a conversation spoken in latin? No.

Can't you see? English borrows and derives words from latin. But you cannot say they are similar languages. Same with Japanese. You seem to imply as if I said the languages were similar and that one fluent with one should understand the other. No! I don't mean that. I simply mean that there are words derived from the same source language. If you don't understand the difference from this, then I'm unable to express it well enough for you to see it. I am sorry about that.

There are also plenty of french-derived words in english, does that mean english speaking folks can understand french? Of course not. Don't be silly.

Did I ever say they weren't related somehow? No.

A direct quote from your previous post: "I do speak the languages mentioned and can tell you that there are almost no Okinawan words that are similar to Japanese. Okinawan is more similar to Chinese."

Koreans, Chinese, Okinawans, Japanese all use Chinese kanji………are they all pronounce the Chinese way?
NO.

Hmph... You keep twisting it around again. First, why do you put the word "all" to these things when I am talking about a few words? Secondly, I am still not talking about pronouncing "the Chinese way". I am talking about the word in Japanese and the same word in Okinawan being nearly the same. As I gave the examples rain and cloud.

Do they all use the same grammar? NO.
Are the nuances for the same kanji in each language the same? NO.
Would someone from one of those countries be able to understand another by using nothing but the spoken word? NO.

Again, we were talking about single words. Not whole language (although all the sources I found on the web suggested Okinawan was a derivation of Japanese).

Sorry to be rude but when you have studied all 3 languages in question and gain some reasonable level and maybe spent as many decades as I have actually using them you and I might be able to discuss this on the same level.

I don't mind rudeness when necessary. I find it weird that so many historians, scientists, linguists and hobbyists of all kinds are able to discuss such simple matters as wether or not a language contains similar loan words as another language, without both parties having a high level scholar degree or decades of native experience on matters, but you are unable to discuss such things. Sorry to be rude but to me that strikes as simple inability to express yourself, which I might add often is a direct result from not having done one's homework well enough... :shrug:

Until that time you might try and be a bit more humble and learn from someone who has been there way before you instead of trying to impress me with little you know on the subject.

I have been very humble, continuously stating that I know less, and saying I'm sorry, and nearly pleeding for any merciful reference to some sources backing your stories up but you have never given none. You simply hide behind "I know so much more than you, so you wouldn't understand anyway" shield. Quite lame if you ask me, but I bet you don't. :rofl:

 

[RyuShiKan]

“The Ryukyuan language is classified as an independent language because of the uniqueness of its remote relationships in morphological, phonological, and lexical aspects……………. Within the Ryukyuan language (extending from Amami Oshima to Yonaguni), the Okinawan language itself is comprised of many diffferent dialects and sub-dialects from village to village. The Shuri dialect was standardized under the Ryukyuan kingdom central administration estiablished by King Sho Shin (1477-1526). It was the official language used in conversation by the aristocratic class of Shuri castle. Most Okinawan songs and poems were composed in the Shuri dialect.
The Shuri dialect is characterized by complexity of honorific markers which differentiate class, sex, and age. A diversity of respect forms was strictly adhered to among the three social classes of aristocracy, gentry, and commoners; between male and female; and also between different age groups. The appropriate respect forms had to be used not only when two speakers were from the same class, same sex, and even to the same age when the hierarchical distinction only related to the month of birth. When two speakers were completely different status, conversational usage was extremely complex.”

From the renowned linguist Hattori Shiro


Class dismissed. :rofl:

 

[Pyros]

Okay, where does this quote of yours say there are no similar loan words? I have already pointed out three similar words (hand, rain, cloud) even I don't speak the language. You keep insisting they don't exist.

 

[Pyros]

You and your quote say the language of Okinawa is complex and has several dialects. One of my earlier quotes said Japanese had some dialects as well.

When taken into account that there are several differing dialects and you yourself (or was it a quote you used..) have stated the language is complicated even for the natives, I find it hard to grasp that you feel you are such an authority of this etymology that you can with absolute certainty say that there are no words whatsoever in any of this multitude of dialects of these admittedly complex languages which would share both their roots and form today, even it is obvious that words such as ame->ami and kumo->kumu are a clear example of these kinds of relationships. You think it is totally coincidence that the words are so similar? And you can state that with absolute authority which can not be doubted even other expert sources disagree with you? Now, that's the kind of arrogance I don't like.

You have said that Okinawans drew more from Chinese than from Japanese. I have brought in sources saying the Japanese words are 60% derived from Chinese words. Another source I brought in even said Okinawan is a relative language to Japanese, but this was dismissed by you if I understood correctly. Nevertheless, just the fact that Japanese vocabulary is about 60% derived from Chinese and the fact that you said Okinawans drew lot from Chinese is in itself a clear indication that similarities between the same meaning words are prone to appear. And I have shown a couple examples too. And you have said the languages have several differing dialects. From all this I really must say that I do not believe your claims that despite all this there are no such words in existence.

It seems obvious that I am unable to change your viewpoint and you are unable to change mine, so this case can be closed on my behalf if you don't have anything else you wish to say about this. This has admittedly been tiresome as I don't know that much about the languages.

 

[arnisador]

Is it not the case that the consensus of linguists is that Ryukyuan is a dialect of Japanese? I know Chinese and Japanese are closely related but is it more correct to consider it a dialect of Japanese than Chinese? The Ryukyuans of course argue that it's a separate language.

 

[Pyros]

The sources I find all say so.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Pyros has been put on my “ignore” list until he can learn some manners and how to have a discussion instead of an “In your face” session.

Originally posted by arnisador
Is it not the case that the consensus of linguists is that Ryukyuan is a dialect of Japanese?

It is usually Japanese linguists that say this and not Okinawan linguists.
Japan as tried to do the old “Borg” trick of “it is useless to resist….you will assimilate” kind of thing with the Okinawans since they stepped foot on Okinawan coral.
This is called “nihonjinron” or making Japanese out of them.
Japan did this in Korea for about 45 years as well.
All schools in Korea taught in Japanese until 1945.

The Japanese started to control Okinawa, to some degree anyway, since 1609.
However, Okinawa was a tributary state of China until the beginning of the 20th century.
All during the Tokugawa reign when the mainland of Japan was supposedly cut off from external trade Okinawa continued to trade with almost any country it wished……so did certain areas of southern Japan….Nagasaki for example.
I have never met an Okinawan that says “I am Japanese” or introduces themselves as such.
Okinawa and Japan are like Hawaii and the US……..same country (now anyway) but different culture.
Their language, like all languages, is a mix of several languages and sometimes adopted words from the people they traded with or encountered. This doesn’t mean their language is similar or the same or even derived from those languages. It just means it has used some “loan words”……..and sometimes uses them in a different context than the original language.
Example:
There is a place in Okinawa that is called Itoman. Legend has it that 8 English Sailors were shipwrecked there and stayed for some time. Some of them supposedly wore “kilts” which looked like a kind of blanket to the Okinawans.
Soon the place was nicknamed after the Sailors…..eightoman….Itoman, and to this day blankets in that area are called “kit”.
It’s only a legend and may or may not be true but may give you an idea of what I am talking about.

In Japan some high school girls use the word "choberrygoo" as an adjective. It's a combination of English and Japanese.....not that you would know it to hear it spoken.

Originally posted by arnisador
I know Chinese and Japanese are closely related but is it more correct to consider it a dialect of Japanese than Chinese? The Ryukyuans of course argue that it's a separate language.

Not basing my idea on what I have read (which states Okinawan is a separate Lang.) but I would agree with the Okinawans.
Geographically they are closer to Taiwan which uses a dialect of Chinese from Fukien…..which is where a lot of Martial Arts people went to from Okinawa and Chinese came from to Okinawan.
Also consider that Okinawa had a trading post set up in China with various dignitaries and envoys of all sorts and dealt with them more frequently than Japanese, also consider that the Chinese had envoys of the same ranks in Okinawa, the famous 36 families.
My teacher’s teacher was a descendant of one of these families as well.
There was just too much influence from China for several 100 years and not enough from Japan to think that Japan had more of an influence on Okinawa.
As I stated before, Okinawans are even genetically different.

 

[Mike Clarke]

I've been following this thread for a little while and it reminds me of those who 'do' things, and those who 'understand' things.

You find this situation all the time in karate.

Pyros,
Great place Finland. I went there once many years ago [bloody cold though]. Anyway, I really do think you should have given RyushinKan a bit more respect for his knowledge of the subject you guys were talking about. Nothing wrong with having ones own opinion on something, but to dig yourself such a big hole on the strength of second hand knowledge [you said yourself that you got most of your information from books written by others], and then enter into an argument with someone who has, and continues to use these languages on a daily basis, is just plan silly.

RyushinKan does not need me [or I suspect anyone else] to come to his aid here. my piont is this, when you have the good grace to use the humility all traditional martial arts teach us to have, then maybe you will understand that you made a mistake continuing on with the conversation and the point you seemed unable to let go of, and for what?

I know you Vikings, your all a big bunch of fuzy warm hearted guys really

Regards,
Mike.

 

[Pyros]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Pyros,
Great place Finland. I went there once many years ago [bloody cold though]. Anyway, I really do think you should have given RyushinKan a bit more respect for his knowledge of the subject you guys were talking about. Nothing wrong with having ones own opinion on something, but to dig yourself such a big hole on the strength of second hand knowledge [you said yourself that you got most of your information from books written by others], and then enter into an argument with someone who has, and continues to use these languages on a daily basis, is just plan silly.

Yeah, well. I don't believe there is anyone in this world who knows all the words in all the dialects of Okinawa. Yet Ryushikan claims he can say with absolute certainty that such words as ami and ame, or kumo and kumu, don't resemble each other. Maybe it's just me but I used mostly the same keys on the keyboard when writing them. I also quoted other experts on the languages who gave those words as samples of the similarity between the languages. Yet Ryushikan tries to maintain that such words do not exist in the languages. In my book he is more arrogant than me. At least I don't claim to be so godlike I can say for sure that I know all possible words including all possible loan words from two languages both having dozens of dialects with such certainty that I am always right. Heck - people use new loan words every day! Does Ryushikan know all the new words that have been used today? Yesterday? A year ago?

 

[Mike Clarke]

Pryos,

Your missing my point. Regardless of whether or not RyuShinKan is more or less arrogant than you [?] you have made the mistake of closing off your mind to the possibility that you are not as well educated on the subject as the person you were conversing with. Now you seem unable to let this lie and I can see you're willing to talk me into the ground too rather than conceed that you might have talked too much rather than listened a bit more maybe?

We have two ears and only one mouth, and I always ask my students to be mindful of this and why it is so [not that your my student or anything], but it does point to the balance we should have when talking and listening.

You can only learn when you're doing one of this activities.

Best regards,
Mike.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

side tangent here - is it possible that while we are seeing the romanized (romanji?) version of the words, that the kanji, kana and hirigana (sp) are all totally different?

I do remember seeing the symbol for Coke in Japanese, Chinese and I think Korean at the Coke Museum in Atlanta. Was close, but it took a long look to realize how similar, yet different they were.

Or are we talking the differenece between writen and spoken?

Just looking at things a small bit and trying to weed out the area of disagreement.

:asian:

 

[Pyros]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Or are we talking the differenece between writen and spoken?

Seems like none of us know what we are talking about anymore... :shrug:

It all started when I said that some words are similar but not same between Japanese and Okinawan and it causes confusion sometimes as people don't know which is the right word. Then this one guy jumped in saying none of the words were similar.

 

[Pyros]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Your missing my point. Regardless of whether or not RyuShinKan is more or less arrogant than you [?] you have made the mistake of closing off your mind to the possibility that you are not as well educated on the subject as the person you were conversing with.

On the contrary, in almost every single post I begged and pleeded the guy to show me any proof to his claims. He never showed none but "I know this, don't argue." which I might add, doesn't really add to that much on the web these days as far as evidence is concerned.