Whats are the various kwans of Hapkido?
Kwans of Hapkido
- Thread starter Rob Broad
- Start date
M
Master Todd Miller
Guest
I hope one of the moderators has spoken to you about all these pointless threads!!!!!!!! Next time put all these inot 1 or 2 threads!!!!!!!
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
OP
- Thread Starter
- #3
Todd until the moderators tell me otherwise I will continue to post the way I have been. If you do not like the fact that I have tried to get some topics generating posts in this area of Martial Talk. If you do not like posts you have some of choices;
1. Talk to the moderators
2. Don't read any of the threads I start
3. Put me on your ignore list, and my posts won't show up.
1. Talk to the moderators
2. Don't read any of the threads I start
3. Put me on your ignore list, and my posts won't show up.
Personally, I've seen the hundred or so threads Rob's started over the last few days and enjoyed watching many of them take off...a few are over the 30 responce point right now. I don't have a problem with them myself, and am grateful for him for taking the time to try to generate traffic and discussion in several of our slower areas.
:asian:
:asian:
Kodanjaclay
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2003
- Messages
- 243
- Reaction score
- 4
Well said Kaith. To Top that off, I would like to point out a conversation I had yesterday. We were discussing Ra which relates to the surface topography of an electro-polished metal. To us, we understand that the lower the Ra value, the smoother the finish on the metal is. To us it is common sense. Yet when QA reviewed the document, it was not clear to him why a 10 Ra finish was acceptable when the specification called for 20 Ra. I ended up generating an insert for something that we believed to be pointless; however, the QA guy made it clear that because we know something, doesn't mean we should assume that someone else did, and that is exactly what had happened.
Todd, simply because we ourselves do not see value, does not mean there is none. As teachers, there may be some information within us that we consider common sense, or what not and pointless to discuss, but may lead to illumination for another.
Hope this helps.
Todd, simply because we ourselves do not see value, does not mean there is none. As teachers, there may be some information within us that we consider common sense, or what not and pointless to discuss, but may lead to illumination for another.
Hope this helps.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Admin:
Not to put too fine a point on this but I must weigh in on the side of Rob. I think just about everyone who has followed any of my participation in many of these Nets knows that often I will ask questions--- even innane questions---- in the hopes of provoking discussion or to keep a discussion going. The purpose is not so much for those folks who would probably enter into the discussion anyhow, but rather for those in LM who need a bit of nudging to find their Internet voice. Along these lines I have also pressed for people, even unpopular persons, to voice their views to keep attitudes for gelling too neatly along the lines of a particular approach or philosophy. I say, let Rob go a bit over the top with his questions and err on the side of overkill rather than have the active population shrink to a select few. FWIW.
BTW: To Rob: Had I started this string I think I would have put some qualifiers in the opening question to help people know how YOU see "kwans".
There are a lot of organizations who have incorporated the term into their organizational culture who may not understand the actual meaning of the term. This is not unlike the use of the term "ryu" in Japanese traditions which is also very often misused. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Not to put too fine a point on this but I must weigh in on the side of Rob. I think just about everyone who has followed any of my participation in many of these Nets knows that often I will ask questions--- even innane questions---- in the hopes of provoking discussion or to keep a discussion going. The purpose is not so much for those folks who would probably enter into the discussion anyhow, but rather for those in LM who need a bit of nudging to find their Internet voice. Along these lines I have also pressed for people, even unpopular persons, to voice their views to keep attitudes for gelling too neatly along the lines of a particular approach or philosophy. I say, let Rob go a bit over the top with his questions and err on the side of overkill rather than have the active population shrink to a select few. FWIW.
BTW: To Rob: Had I started this string I think I would have put some qualifiers in the opening question to help people know how YOU see "kwans".
There are a lot of organizations who have incorporated the term into their organizational culture who may not understand the actual meaning of the term. This is not unlike the use of the term "ryu" in Japanese traditions which is also very often misused. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
D
Disco
Guest
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
I think its also important to note that there are some kwan names that are duplicated though with different takes on the KMA. There are also folks like Ji Han Jae who have eschewed the use of a kwan designation for a more organic model. The result is that one has Sin Mu Hapkido rather than Sin Mu Kwan Hapkido. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Martial Tucker
Black Belt
Bruce, I have very casually looked into this subject in both HKD and TKD (my primary style). While I have little or nothing to bring to the table in this discussion, I find it fascinating, and definitely an area I would like to spend a lotglad2bhere said:
more time on. First, what do you mean by a more "organic" model?
Also, in following your other posts since I have joined this forum, it's clear that you have devoted MUCH of your time to learn the history of the arts.
Just curious where you are finding the best research data?
Public libraries are worthless if you look at martial arts books, because they typically just have a bunch of "how to" manuals. I have found some decent internet sites, but you always have to be wary of the source. I have found several decent books on the history of Japan and Korea, but they certainly don't go very deep into the development of the martial arts. What is your favorite research method/source, if you don't mind me asking?
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Martial:
Taking an organic view of relating practitioners to each other runs along the lines of associations, federations, clubs and frats. Think of organizations which evolve for the sole purpose of bringing together people who share an interest. BTW this is also why I continue to have strong issues about the contractual approach to developing MA school systems.
A non-organizational approach would be a group of people who find themselves gradually drawn towards a particular individual or value system because as individuals they share the same way of looking at things.
A good example of the difference would be the development of armies over the years. Before there were organized armies who were paid and equipt by the State there were personal armies. In Korea these were called "house armies" and were obligated to a particular family, clan or lord. There is a huge difference between people who find themselves drawn together by shared values and those who share the same point in time and place because they are paid or required to be there.
As far as my favorite research resources I will tell you--- but ONLY you and you have to promise not to breath a word to another living soul! This is just between you and I, 'Kay? :ultracool
My all-time favorite resources for research are bibliographies. All I have to do is find one book that hits the mark for me on a subject and I turn to the back and start reading the bib-s. I long-ago out-grew the standard fare on the bookshelves at Barnes and Nobles, Borders and Waldens'. Now I locate a title, and go to Amazon.Com or Half.com or a dozen or so other book sources on my favorites list and get really great titles for a fraction of what they cost as special orders. Allbookstores, Powells and Booksense are three others and while I don't discount Amazon.com's rare-&-out-of-print section or Barnes-&-Nobles comparable section I can't say the I have always seen the same savings, but that might just be a matter of a particular title at a particular moment in time. BTW: JAMA also has great authors who likewise have great resources in their bib-s. Check it out. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Taking an organic view of relating practitioners to each other runs along the lines of associations, federations, clubs and frats. Think of organizations which evolve for the sole purpose of bringing together people who share an interest. BTW this is also why I continue to have strong issues about the contractual approach to developing MA school systems.
A non-organizational approach would be a group of people who find themselves gradually drawn towards a particular individual or value system because as individuals they share the same way of looking at things.
A good example of the difference would be the development of armies over the years. Before there were organized armies who were paid and equipt by the State there were personal armies. In Korea these were called "house armies" and were obligated to a particular family, clan or lord. There is a huge difference between people who find themselves drawn together by shared values and those who share the same point in time and place because they are paid or required to be there.
As far as my favorite research resources I will tell you--- but ONLY you and you have to promise not to breath a word to another living soul! This is just between you and I, 'Kay? :ultracool
My all-time favorite resources for research are bibliographies. All I have to do is find one book that hits the mark for me on a subject and I turn to the back and start reading the bib-s. I long-ago out-grew the standard fare on the bookshelves at Barnes and Nobles, Borders and Waldens'. Now I locate a title, and go to Amazon.Com or Half.com or a dozen or so other book sources on my favorites list and get really great titles for a fraction of what they cost as special orders. Allbookstores, Powells and Booksense are three others and while I don't discount Amazon.com's rare-&-out-of-print section or Barnes-&-Nobles comparable section I can't say the I have always seen the same savings, but that might just be a matter of a particular title at a particular moment in time. BTW: JAMA also has great authors who likewise have great resources in their bib-s. Check it out. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Martial Tucker
Black Belt
Hi Bruce,glad2bhere said:
Thanks for the research tips (your secrets are safe with me). Dissecting the bibliography of a book is a skill I've forgotten since college (along with my raccoon coat and pipe).
As for the kwan vs. organic distinction, your statements are quite thought provoking. As for contracts, I did an introductory month in TKD 8 years ago when I started at a popular dojang here in suburban Chicago where I live. I knew after a month I was hooked, but the "master" told me that if I wanted to continue, I had to sign a minimum 3 year contract. I walked out, determined to find a new school, and "hit the jackpot" with where I ended up.
As for GM Jae's school "model"......I am familiar with him and know firsthand a few people who study with him, but I am not educated as to how his school "model"/structure differs from the typical kwan-based school. Comments would be welcome and informative.
As for your description of an "organization", I may be showing my ignorance/inexperience here (I'm used to it), but has there been a lot of experience with a "co-op" structure of a dojang, where the income/expense books are open for all of the students and costs are shared equally by all involved to keep the school open. Then, of course, the more existing students bring in new students, the more costs are spread around. Sounds idealistic and unrealistic at first glance, but it would reflect a true "labor of love" by all involved and would be an interesting environment. I'm no Master/school owner by any means, but it seems as though a teacher willing to subrogate his ego for the love of teaching would find this model intriguing. I don't know of any traditional schools operating at a meaningful profit, and this structure (assuming you are a good enough teacher to be able to assemble a critical mass of students) would ensure the bills are paid monthly, and take much of the risk out of the operation.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
"......As for your description of an "organization", I may be showing my ignorance/inexperience here (I'm used to it), but has there been a lot of experience with a "co-op" structure of a dojang, where the income/expense books are open for all of the students and costs are shared equally by all involved to keep the school open. Then, of course, the more existing students bring in new students, the more costs are spread around. Sounds idealistic and unrealistic at first glance, but it would reflect a true "labor of love" by all involved and would be an interesting environment. I'm no Master/school owner by any means, but it seems as though a teacher willing to subrogate his ego for the love of teaching would find this model intriguing. I don't know of any traditional schools operating at a meaningful profit, and this structure (assuming you are a good enough teacher to be able to assemble a critical mass of students) would ensure the bills are paid monthly, and take much of the risk out of the operation....."
Actually this model had been around for centuries in East Asia. The teacher was essentially supported by his students who collectively took responsibility for his well-being. The system effectively collapsed with the advent of the civil education movement in the 1800-s that was imported to the East (in Korea mostly through the Christian missionaries) and was resisted vehemently by the Tong Hak Movement (among others). In my own case I teach students for free so that the desire to learn is placed wholly on their shoulders. If they show-up, they get taught. If they don't show up they don't get taught. The survey course I teach for the local junior college is for people who want to get a taste of Hapkido without signing their lives away and thats between them and the college. I get a check from the college for my part-time teaching but that goes back to underwriting my Hapkido efforts. There is also a Con Ed program but people who are at the point that they can take that usually wind up just joining the Hapkido club on campus that meets twice a week. People are routinely astounding that I do not charge for teaching and some consider it a waste of many years of training on my part. I suppose opinions vary. On the other hand these are my skills to do with as I please, yes? It all comes back to the kwan model of KMA training. If I charged money for teaching and that was the ONLY thing that kept people coming might these be the sorts of people who would be willing to extend themselves and pass the art along after I am gone? FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Actually this model had been around for centuries in East Asia. The teacher was essentially supported by his students who collectively took responsibility for his well-being. The system effectively collapsed with the advent of the civil education movement in the 1800-s that was imported to the East (in Korea mostly through the Christian missionaries) and was resisted vehemently by the Tong Hak Movement (among others). In my own case I teach students for free so that the desire to learn is placed wholly on their shoulders. If they show-up, they get taught. If they don't show up they don't get taught. The survey course I teach for the local junior college is for people who want to get a taste of Hapkido without signing their lives away and thats between them and the college. I get a check from the college for my part-time teaching but that goes back to underwriting my Hapkido efforts. There is also a Con Ed program but people who are at the point that they can take that usually wind up just joining the Hapkido club on campus that meets twice a week. People are routinely astounding that I do not charge for teaching and some consider it a waste of many years of training on my part. I suppose opinions vary. On the other hand these are my skills to do with as I please, yes? It all comes back to the kwan model of KMA training. If I charged money for teaching and that was the ONLY thing that kept people coming might these be the sorts of people who would be willing to extend themselves and pass the art along after I am gone? FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
M
Master Todd Miller
Guest
It is evident that you are not a Hapkido practitioner Rob. My point was that what is your point of all those posts? To get talk started? There are already active threads! It makes much more sense to start 1 or maybe 2 threads. Thats all I am talking about!
If thats what you are looking for, pointless jabber. Go for it.
No offense intended :asian:
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
If thats what you are looking for, pointless jabber. Go for it.
No offense intended :asian:
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com
W
whalen
Guest
I am not sure if this is what you are looking for but these are The list of the KWANS of the KHF .
1. Kyung Moo Kwan (GM KIM Nam Jae, 8th Dan)
2. Eul Ji Kwan (GM KIM Hyung Sang, 8th Dan)
3. Yun Moo Kwan (GM LEE Ho Il, 8th Dan)
4. Yoo Sool Won (GM YOO Sang Ho, 9th Dan)
5. Jin Jung Kwan (GM LEE Chang Soo, 8th Dan)
6. Ki Moo Kwan (GM IM Hyun Yong)
7. Pyung Moo Kwan
8. Soong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Jung Moon)
9. Hak Moo Kwan (GM LEE Yong Sik)
10. Kum Moo Kwan (GM JUNG Soon Sung, 8th Dan)
11. Kuk Sool Kwan (GM KIM Woo Tak)
12. Dong Yi Kwan (GM KANG Tae Soo)
13. Bong Moo Kwan (GM IM Myung Sup, 8th Dan)
14. Yun Moo Kwan - Kwang Ju
15. Huek Joo Kwan (GM JIN Jong Moon, 9th Dan)
16. Moo Moo Kwan (GM KIM Yong Chang)
17. Chun Ji Kwan (GM KIM Byung Soo, 8th Dan)
18. Se Sung Kwan (GM JUNG Ik Chul, 7th Dan)
19. Kuh Ho Kwan (GM CHUN Won Il, 8th Dan)
20. Koryo Chun Tong Moo Ye Won
21. Kang Moo Kwan (GM CHUN Man Bae)
22. Hyo Chun Kwan (GM YOO Dong Gu, 7th Dan)
23. So Rim Kwan
24. Song Won Kwan (GM JUNG Bong Ok, 8th Dan)
25. Yoo Sung Kwan (GM KIM Nam Kyu)
26. Yon Bi Kwan (GM KIM Jung Soo)
27. Han Moo Kwan (GM SONG Young Ki, 9th Dan)
28. Yoo Sool Kwan (GM BYUN Young Dae)
29. Da Mool Moo Kwan
30. Se Sim Kwan (GM YOO Ki Hyun, 7th Dan)
31. Ki Sim Kwan (GM SUH Kwang Won, 8th Dan)
32. Duk Moo Kwan (GM SUH Myung Il, 8th Dan)
33. Kwang Moo Kwan (GM NO Kwang Yul, 8th Dan)
34. Yong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Dong Woo, 9th Dan)
35. Chun Do Kwan (GM YU Chun Hee, 8th Dan)
36. In Moo Kwan (GM NA In Dong, 9th Dan)
37. Tae Moo Kwan (GM JUNG Ki Chul, 8th Dan)
38. Kun Moo Kwan (GM HAN Kyu Il, 8th Dan)
39. Soo Do Kwan (GM OH Jae Suk)
40. Chung Kyum Kwan (GM CHOI Suk Hwan)
Hal whalen
1. Kyung Moo Kwan (GM KIM Nam Jae, 8th Dan)
2. Eul Ji Kwan (GM KIM Hyung Sang, 8th Dan)
3. Yun Moo Kwan (GM LEE Ho Il, 8th Dan)
4. Yoo Sool Won (GM YOO Sang Ho, 9th Dan)
5. Jin Jung Kwan (GM LEE Chang Soo, 8th Dan)
6. Ki Moo Kwan (GM IM Hyun Yong)
7. Pyung Moo Kwan
8. Soong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Jung Moon)
9. Hak Moo Kwan (GM LEE Yong Sik)
10. Kum Moo Kwan (GM JUNG Soon Sung, 8th Dan)
11. Kuk Sool Kwan (GM KIM Woo Tak)
12. Dong Yi Kwan (GM KANG Tae Soo)
13. Bong Moo Kwan (GM IM Myung Sup, 8th Dan)
14. Yun Moo Kwan - Kwang Ju
15. Huek Joo Kwan (GM JIN Jong Moon, 9th Dan)
16. Moo Moo Kwan (GM KIM Yong Chang)
17. Chun Ji Kwan (GM KIM Byung Soo, 8th Dan)
18. Se Sung Kwan (GM JUNG Ik Chul, 7th Dan)
19. Kuh Ho Kwan (GM CHUN Won Il, 8th Dan)
20. Koryo Chun Tong Moo Ye Won
21. Kang Moo Kwan (GM CHUN Man Bae)
22. Hyo Chun Kwan (GM YOO Dong Gu, 7th Dan)
23. So Rim Kwan
24. Song Won Kwan (GM JUNG Bong Ok, 8th Dan)
25. Yoo Sung Kwan (GM KIM Nam Kyu)
26. Yon Bi Kwan (GM KIM Jung Soo)
27. Han Moo Kwan (GM SONG Young Ki, 9th Dan)
28. Yoo Sool Kwan (GM BYUN Young Dae)
29. Da Mool Moo Kwan
30. Se Sim Kwan (GM YOO Ki Hyun, 7th Dan)
31. Ki Sim Kwan (GM SUH Kwang Won, 8th Dan)
32. Duk Moo Kwan (GM SUH Myung Il, 8th Dan)
33. Kwang Moo Kwan (GM NO Kwang Yul, 8th Dan)
34. Yong Moo Kwan (GM LEE Dong Woo, 9th Dan)
35. Chun Do Kwan (GM YU Chun Hee, 8th Dan)
36. In Moo Kwan (GM NA In Dong, 9th Dan)
37. Tae Moo Kwan (GM JUNG Ki Chul, 8th Dan)
38. Kun Moo Kwan (GM HAN Kyu Il, 8th Dan)
39. Soo Do Kwan (GM OH Jae Suk)
40. Chung Kyum Kwan (GM CHOI Suk Hwan)
Hal whalen
