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Advancing Levels of Skill & SD Techs Against Grapplers
By Dr. Dave in da house - 04-11-2012 01:10 AM
Originally Posted at: KenpoTalk
====================
Mr. Hale made a point at a recent seminar that I hadn’t considered overtly. As I mentioned in another post, some of the technique scenarios are set up to offer differing solutions to attacks, based on skill levels. He used the Ram techs as his eg. The first has us reacting to the attacker once they have already effectively invaded our space. Once we begin to develop the perceptual, mental and physical speed associated with experience in training, we become able to answer similar attacks earlier in their formation. Keeping with the Ram techs, there is a point where we see him earlier in the bum rush, and respond. Finally, in the latter of the Ram tech, we go after him before he really even gets to generate momentum in his onslaught – we invade his space, not the other way around.
We see the same development in sparring responses to attacks. When we first start to learn, we find ourselves responding to a barrage as it hits us, and we cover up; hide behind our shields, so to speak. As we develop, we block the incoming attacks (wrist to wrist, shin to shin, etc.). Later still, we jam them – the guy starts to offweight his leg to throw a kick, and we have already checked his ability to do so by stuffing a foot in the path of travel of his kick, so it doesn’t get much further than the chamber. Still later, we strike pre-emptively – we see him start to offweight that same foot, and before his toes have lifted off the mat, we have whapped him in the grill, gut, and groin, giving him something different to think about than throwing that kick.
Concurrently, kenpo self-defense techniques can be seen to typically take one of “at least” two general response algorithms to an attack. They either use fundamentals from an art embodying the spirit of the attack to counter it, or they take a “change the subject” approach to contending with that same attack. For example, one approach to nullifying a wristlock while working the attackers vital targets is to use counter-tactics from jujutsu or lua, which prevent the attacker from completing the assault. Another would be to completely ignore the wristlock nature of the attack, and stick a finger in his eye and break a knee before he gets a chance to really sink it in. In a situation where we may get grasped by a wrestler and suplexed, we can either use a wrestling counter proper, improve our base, and shift our position as a first line of defense; or we can choose to ignore the fact he has seized us completely, and start taking the price of attacking us out of his hide and vital organs.
So, we have a minimum of two “spirit of the defense” approaches to take: One with an expertise taken from within the discipline of the attackers likely training, and one taken from the “Cuisinart Kenpo” playbook. Of course, there are many shades of gray between the two poles, leaving room for a myriad of replies. But we know we have at least 2. If we run with the Ram examples, we can assume 3 levels of skill:
So, people in kenpoland often dialogue about the gross lack of pre-trained skill sets that prepare kenpoka for the types of attacks we see coming in at us from MMA and BJJ practitioners. To address this, we would need to set up an information exchange to address the most likely or most common attacks from these practitioners, and devise novice, intermediate, and expert level counters to them, covering – at a minimum – the 2 previously discussed poles of defense: within-the-attacking-art (WTAA), and … well… mayhem.
I will video and post my thoughts on these as we go, and am happy to see others’ approaches, as well.
To start, here are the attacks and scenarios I tend to think need a stronger look than is typically given in “the system”. The reason I put “the system” in quotes, is this: If Mr. Parker were still alive, some up-and-coming youngster would have done a project like this as their thesis, and after approval and tweaking by Mr. P., it would likely have eventually found it’s way into the system… a new Long Form containing seminal techniques on a theme; a new Striking Set, a couple of appendix techniques, whatever – Mr. Parker would have been pressed to take a stance on the MMA craze by making a generic response skill set available to the kenpo consumer public. Keep in mind: This might even just have been a revisitation of existing techniques, with Mr. P touring around the country to show how they can apply to MMA and BJJ cats. We will never know. Trust me, though – when it comes to that whole “perceptual speed, mental speed, physical speed” thing, Mr. P would have been just fine against the vast majority of BJJ NFG’s, just using his initial tendencies to stop-block momentum, and stick ham-sized hands where bodys don’t like them. At least, that’s my own estimation of the man and his skills.
Anyway, back to the point.
Attacks:
Upright:
- Front Clinch
- Head-&-Arm Control
- Double arm control
- Neck Control
- Side Clinch
- Rear Clinch
- 2-3 Common Thai-Boxing combos (i.e., jab / cross / rear-leg shin roundhouse)
- Guillotine (3x: attacker is jockeying for position to ensnare one on; attacker has position and is snaking it on; it’s on and cinched tight)
Supine:
- Mounted, attacker upright and punching downward
- Mounted, Attacker based out onto all fours
- Side Mounted
- Knee up
- Snake Mounted
- Kesa Gatame Side Control Position
Prone(ish)
- In the attackers guard, attacker striking
- In the attackers guard, attacker jockeying for an arm-bar control
- In the attackers guard, attacker jockeying for an ankle or foot hold or control
- In the attackers guard, attacker jockeying for a guillotine
- In the attackers half-guard
- Rear mounted, attacker in 3 stages of putting on hadaka jime with hooks in (mata leon): positioning for it, snaking the arm around the neck; it’s on and cinched, and the defender is on their way to turning blue if they don’t handle it).
- These same 3 stages (attempted, in process, and completed attacks) for Figure-4 arm bar, Japanese arm bar, and Oma Plata
Also need a kenpo-ese parlance. If clubs are Storms, guns are Rods and knives are Lances, what are shoots and clinches? Chokes? Defending from already being mounted, versus a take-down to an attempted mount, versus the shoot to clinch to take-down? What is the nickname for combo’s? Most of these guys develop their boxing to a level beyond poking at you with just a jab, or just a straight, or just a hook. They throw them as a flurry, with a kick at the front or back end of the combo, or both.
Checking the Lion? Aggressive Bear? Grasp of Marie Antoinette?
Let’s see what we can hash together. I know, if I were Mr. P. and faced with this scenario, I would get together with someone who has both BJJ/MMA AND kenpo training, so I could draw from knowledge within the attacking systems, as well as applying kenpo C&P and movement patterns. Assuming Snapping Twig will work against a guy who has mounted you and is dropping bombs at your head will not be sufficient; I assure you. Think it will be? Walk up and *****-slap David Arnold, and when he has softened you up a bit, then pulled you to the floor, and commenced pummeling you in the nose with solid punches… we’ll see what happens. I will stand off to the side, and make the snarky inquiry, “How’s that workin’ for ya there, Skippy?”
At the very expert levels of kenpo, I am sure the skill level and command of the basics will carry the very good ones against most of the weekend warriors, most of the time. I.e., I am sure that – if I dropped to shoot on Mr. Tatum, I’d have a finger in my eye before I sunk the clinch on enough to put him on the ground. I am not sure this is true for a shiny new shodan. I have seen some of Docs clever replies for someone trying to latch on a clinch, and know I would be misaligned and KTFO’d before I hooked a leg. But that’s not the norm. How many guys out there are as fast and accurate as Mr. Tatum? How many are as stable, informed, and obsessed with alignment as Mr. Chapel?
If we do the 3 stages and 2 poles for each of the above scenarios alone, we are at around 50+ techs (I don’t do math, so could be way more; could be way less). Do kenpo practitioners deserve to have a set of a couple dozen or more SD techs that prepare them for contending with attack positions that aren’t inherently addressed in “the system”, as it’s known in general? Even if we train in BJJ on the nights we aren’t on a kenpo mat, that still does not specifically train our brains to apply our natural weapons in an optimal manner, from the positions we find ourselves in whilst wrasslin’.
I know that – for myself – when I want to prep for a possible conflict with an LA Boxing, fitness-club MMA geek, I train Short Form 1 and Finger Set. Upward blocks, ground up the jawline of a hugger who was misaligned by the inward parry that’s the minor inside the major, can wreak havoc on the alignment they need in order to turn the clinch into a take-down. The finger-hooks and palm-heel/rakes in Finger Set are brutal things to do to an attacker. With a black belt in judo, I can find a path to whap most of the people, most of the time with one or more of those strikes in a tie-up or clinch. With a (very rusty) purple in BJJ, I can buy the space and time I need to whap bad guys in the windpipe and eyes with individual basics. Will it work all the time? No. I meet plenty of guys on a regular basis who would not give me the opportunity to go cuisanart on them. And – this is my ultimate point in all this – until we set aside the time to specifically train our bodies and brains to recognize these positions and their inherent strategic liabilities, and formulate effective responses to them as dictated by circumstance, we will not be able to. Fight them worth a poop, that is. We have to train like a kenpoist being attacked by a Brazilian Jujutsuka, if we are to be surely able to fight like one.
No more “defense against a front lunging thrust punch”, like we saw from Shotokan 50+ years ago. Time for the techniques to read, “Entangled Boa – defense against an attacker who has obtained the top-mount position, and is applying a right figure-4 arm-bar”. 2 approaches: One that employs a defense already existent within the BJJ system whilst adding the “grab and beat” kenpo C&P; and one that just sort of checks him off, creates targets of opportunity for us to beat on, and ends with something a little more intelligent than a double coverout. (personally, I’m working on replacing coverouts with “scalp the unconscious attacker and count coup, wipe the scene for prints and cameras, and silence any witnesses with two to the chest”, but have yet to really solidify it in any of the extensions).
This would be a really fun video thesis project, IMO. Free is a Machado BB and kenpo BB… he’d be a guy I would love to see take this on. David Arnold is one of my favorite nightmares – good kenpo BB, who is a hair away from his BJJ black, and big; that’s another guy I’d love to see take this on. None of that “re-tweaking 5 Swords to work against a jab/cross combo, then maybe we’ll wrestle” stuff, but a real, honest-to-goodness workup of new kenpo techniques that applied some of the same algorithmic strategies to cancellation, posture, weapon/target, etc., that went into some of the coolest SD techs on the planet.
Any takers? I suggest starting with a nomenclature protocol… Reprimanding the Really Tan Guys with Cauliflower Ears from Rio? C’mahn… we can do better than we have. Was Mr. Parker really the only creative and thinking kenpoist?
Best Regards,
D.
Read More...
------------------------------------
KenpoTalk.com Post Bot - Kenpo Feed
By Dr. Dave in da house - 04-11-2012 01:10 AM
Originally Posted at: KenpoTalk
====================
Mr. Hale made a point at a recent seminar that I hadn’t considered overtly. As I mentioned in another post, some of the technique scenarios are set up to offer differing solutions to attacks, based on skill levels. He used the Ram techs as his eg. The first has us reacting to the attacker once they have already effectively invaded our space. Once we begin to develop the perceptual, mental and physical speed associated with experience in training, we become able to answer similar attacks earlier in their formation. Keeping with the Ram techs, there is a point where we see him earlier in the bum rush, and respond. Finally, in the latter of the Ram tech, we go after him before he really even gets to generate momentum in his onslaught – we invade his space, not the other way around.
We see the same development in sparring responses to attacks. When we first start to learn, we find ourselves responding to a barrage as it hits us, and we cover up; hide behind our shields, so to speak. As we develop, we block the incoming attacks (wrist to wrist, shin to shin, etc.). Later still, we jam them – the guy starts to offweight his leg to throw a kick, and we have already checked his ability to do so by stuffing a foot in the path of travel of his kick, so it doesn’t get much further than the chamber. Still later, we strike pre-emptively – we see him start to offweight that same foot, and before his toes have lifted off the mat, we have whapped him in the grill, gut, and groin, giving him something different to think about than throwing that kick.
Concurrently, kenpo self-defense techniques can be seen to typically take one of “at least” two general response algorithms to an attack. They either use fundamentals from an art embodying the spirit of the attack to counter it, or they take a “change the subject” approach to contending with that same attack. For example, one approach to nullifying a wristlock while working the attackers vital targets is to use counter-tactics from jujutsu or lua, which prevent the attacker from completing the assault. Another would be to completely ignore the wristlock nature of the attack, and stick a finger in his eye and break a knee before he gets a chance to really sink it in. In a situation where we may get grasped by a wrestler and suplexed, we can either use a wrestling counter proper, improve our base, and shift our position as a first line of defense; or we can choose to ignore the fact he has seized us completely, and start taking the price of attacking us out of his hide and vital organs.
So, we have a minimum of two “spirit of the defense” approaches to take: One with an expertise taken from within the discipline of the attackers likely training, and one taken from the “Cuisinart Kenpo” playbook. Of course, there are many shades of gray between the two poles, leaving room for a myriad of replies. But we know we have at least 2. If we run with the Ram examples, we can assume 3 levels of skill:
- Here I am, minding my own self-business, and suddenly I find myself in the midst of a completed attack (I am already in a bearhug, armlock, choke, whatever).
- Here I am, minding my own self business, when all of a sudden, I can see I am ABOUT to be cemented into an attack, but I have some time to fit a reply to the level of intensity of the assault;
- Here I am, in a situation that has escalated to physical, and I can see what the other guy is fixin’ to do, giving me time to decide how I want to reply to the incoming attack BEFORE it gets critical.
So, people in kenpoland often dialogue about the gross lack of pre-trained skill sets that prepare kenpoka for the types of attacks we see coming in at us from MMA and BJJ practitioners. To address this, we would need to set up an information exchange to address the most likely or most common attacks from these practitioners, and devise novice, intermediate, and expert level counters to them, covering – at a minimum – the 2 previously discussed poles of defense: within-the-attacking-art (WTAA), and … well… mayhem.
I will video and post my thoughts on these as we go, and am happy to see others’ approaches, as well.
To start, here are the attacks and scenarios I tend to think need a stronger look than is typically given in “the system”. The reason I put “the system” in quotes, is this: If Mr. Parker were still alive, some up-and-coming youngster would have done a project like this as their thesis, and after approval and tweaking by Mr. P., it would likely have eventually found it’s way into the system… a new Long Form containing seminal techniques on a theme; a new Striking Set, a couple of appendix techniques, whatever – Mr. Parker would have been pressed to take a stance on the MMA craze by making a generic response skill set available to the kenpo consumer public. Keep in mind: This might even just have been a revisitation of existing techniques, with Mr. P touring around the country to show how they can apply to MMA and BJJ cats. We will never know. Trust me, though – when it comes to that whole “perceptual speed, mental speed, physical speed” thing, Mr. P would have been just fine against the vast majority of BJJ NFG’s, just using his initial tendencies to stop-block momentum, and stick ham-sized hands where bodys don’t like them. At least, that’s my own estimation of the man and his skills.
Anyway, back to the point.
Attacks:
Upright:
- Front Clinch
- Head-&-Arm Control
- Double arm control
- Neck Control
- Side Clinch
- Rear Clinch
- 2-3 Common Thai-Boxing combos (i.e., jab / cross / rear-leg shin roundhouse)
- Guillotine (3x: attacker is jockeying for position to ensnare one on; attacker has position and is snaking it on; it’s on and cinched tight)
Supine:
- Mounted, attacker upright and punching downward
- Mounted, Attacker based out onto all fours
- Side Mounted
- Knee up
- Snake Mounted
- Kesa Gatame Side Control Position
Prone(ish)
- In the attackers guard, attacker striking
- In the attackers guard, attacker jockeying for an arm-bar control
- In the attackers guard, attacker jockeying for an ankle or foot hold or control
- In the attackers guard, attacker jockeying for a guillotine
- In the attackers half-guard
- Rear mounted, attacker in 3 stages of putting on hadaka jime with hooks in (mata leon): positioning for it, snaking the arm around the neck; it’s on and cinched, and the defender is on their way to turning blue if they don’t handle it).
- These same 3 stages (attempted, in process, and completed attacks) for Figure-4 arm bar, Japanese arm bar, and Oma Plata
Also need a kenpo-ese parlance. If clubs are Storms, guns are Rods and knives are Lances, what are shoots and clinches? Chokes? Defending from already being mounted, versus a take-down to an attempted mount, versus the shoot to clinch to take-down? What is the nickname for combo’s? Most of these guys develop their boxing to a level beyond poking at you with just a jab, or just a straight, or just a hook. They throw them as a flurry, with a kick at the front or back end of the combo, or both.
Checking the Lion? Aggressive Bear? Grasp of Marie Antoinette?
Let’s see what we can hash together. I know, if I were Mr. P. and faced with this scenario, I would get together with someone who has both BJJ/MMA AND kenpo training, so I could draw from knowledge within the attacking systems, as well as applying kenpo C&P and movement patterns. Assuming Snapping Twig will work against a guy who has mounted you and is dropping bombs at your head will not be sufficient; I assure you. Think it will be? Walk up and *****-slap David Arnold, and when he has softened you up a bit, then pulled you to the floor, and commenced pummeling you in the nose with solid punches… we’ll see what happens. I will stand off to the side, and make the snarky inquiry, “How’s that workin’ for ya there, Skippy?”
At the very expert levels of kenpo, I am sure the skill level and command of the basics will carry the very good ones against most of the weekend warriors, most of the time. I.e., I am sure that – if I dropped to shoot on Mr. Tatum, I’d have a finger in my eye before I sunk the clinch on enough to put him on the ground. I am not sure this is true for a shiny new shodan. I have seen some of Docs clever replies for someone trying to latch on a clinch, and know I would be misaligned and KTFO’d before I hooked a leg. But that’s not the norm. How many guys out there are as fast and accurate as Mr. Tatum? How many are as stable, informed, and obsessed with alignment as Mr. Chapel?
If we do the 3 stages and 2 poles for each of the above scenarios alone, we are at around 50+ techs (I don’t do math, so could be way more; could be way less). Do kenpo practitioners deserve to have a set of a couple dozen or more SD techs that prepare them for contending with attack positions that aren’t inherently addressed in “the system”, as it’s known in general? Even if we train in BJJ on the nights we aren’t on a kenpo mat, that still does not specifically train our brains to apply our natural weapons in an optimal manner, from the positions we find ourselves in whilst wrasslin’.
I know that – for myself – when I want to prep for a possible conflict with an LA Boxing, fitness-club MMA geek, I train Short Form 1 and Finger Set. Upward blocks, ground up the jawline of a hugger who was misaligned by the inward parry that’s the minor inside the major, can wreak havoc on the alignment they need in order to turn the clinch into a take-down. The finger-hooks and palm-heel/rakes in Finger Set are brutal things to do to an attacker. With a black belt in judo, I can find a path to whap most of the people, most of the time with one or more of those strikes in a tie-up or clinch. With a (very rusty) purple in BJJ, I can buy the space and time I need to whap bad guys in the windpipe and eyes with individual basics. Will it work all the time? No. I meet plenty of guys on a regular basis who would not give me the opportunity to go cuisanart on them. And – this is my ultimate point in all this – until we set aside the time to specifically train our bodies and brains to recognize these positions and their inherent strategic liabilities, and formulate effective responses to them as dictated by circumstance, we will not be able to. Fight them worth a poop, that is. We have to train like a kenpoist being attacked by a Brazilian Jujutsuka, if we are to be surely able to fight like one.
No more “defense against a front lunging thrust punch”, like we saw from Shotokan 50+ years ago. Time for the techniques to read, “Entangled Boa – defense against an attacker who has obtained the top-mount position, and is applying a right figure-4 arm-bar”. 2 approaches: One that employs a defense already existent within the BJJ system whilst adding the “grab and beat” kenpo C&P; and one that just sort of checks him off, creates targets of opportunity for us to beat on, and ends with something a little more intelligent than a double coverout. (personally, I’m working on replacing coverouts with “scalp the unconscious attacker and count coup, wipe the scene for prints and cameras, and silence any witnesses with two to the chest”, but have yet to really solidify it in any of the extensions).
This would be a really fun video thesis project, IMO. Free is a Machado BB and kenpo BB… he’d be a guy I would love to see take this on. David Arnold is one of my favorite nightmares – good kenpo BB, who is a hair away from his BJJ black, and big; that’s another guy I’d love to see take this on. None of that “re-tweaking 5 Swords to work against a jab/cross combo, then maybe we’ll wrestle” stuff, but a real, honest-to-goodness workup of new kenpo techniques that applied some of the same algorithmic strategies to cancellation, posture, weapon/target, etc., that went into some of the coolest SD techs on the planet.
Any takers? I suggest starting with a nomenclature protocol… Reprimanding the Really Tan Guys with Cauliflower Ears from Rio? C’mahn… we can do better than we have. Was Mr. Parker really the only creative and thinking kenpoist?
Best Regards,
D.
Read More...
------------------------------------
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