Kotegaeshi with a difference

[now disabled]

ND, he's actually making a valid point. Without pressure testing, there's a lot that seems feasible that has big problems. I find that classical training sometimes (perhaps most often) ignores what I call the "failure mode" of a technique: what happens when it fails, and how likely is it to fail. That sutemi waza response from the clinch is a good answer, if the failure mode isn't too dangerous. So, what happens if you fail at that? There are two likely "failure" outcomes: they only stumble badly (not a bad failure mode, probably), or you slip off and end up at their feet (very bad failure mode). How likely are those? It takes some testing, including someone trying to do stuff from clinch and nage trying to pull this off (among other possible responses). Sometimes, uke knowing what's coming makes things harder to do (uke consciously or unconsciously counters the exact move they know is coming), and sometimes it makes them easier to do (uke sometimes unconsciously just starts too early into the fall). This is why, when demonstrating in class, I often only instruct the attack, and don't tell them what response I'm bringing the first time. Not a full solution, but part of one.

Yeah I get that point and it would be interesting to take that further

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i am going to go back to my analogy of flying with dino feathers. this technique looks like it will work. it actually looks really good and maybe it will work with an unskilled person. but again there are missing factors when we imagine how this will work in our minds. the missing factor i see is that the uke is doing a horrible clinch. he is not controlling the head or body. i went and looked at some Muay Thai videos for comparison and after analyzing the clinch a little more i think the uke is giving too much freedom for Nage to move around. it makes me wonder if the clinch was tighter could Nage actually do the throw. pressure testing is so important but it has to have the correct parameters.
so perhaps the technique will work but the details need to be worked out other wise the nage will never fully understand if what he is doing works.

With a lot of responses like this (the video, not your post), my position is that they are responses right before the worst case scenario. I'd need to feel a good MT clinch (@Tony Dismukes: next time??) to see what I think it leaves available. But as they are moving into the clinch - before they get that last bit of restriction - this would be available. This, by the way, is true of a lot of aiki techniques, in my opinion - they are an answer for right before the worst case, but not right after.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yep, that's essentially a drop seoi nage (real Judo folks might disagree - I have a loose interpretation of what fits within a technique's name).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I get your point however to actually get a Thai fighter to actually perform as nage well i am not sure on as if it was performed and the uke doesn't or can't take the breakfall or knows how to take ukemi then well it might kinda hurt a person

Yeah, I'd want someone who knows a MT clinch well, and also knows this kind of ukemi well.

 

[now disabled]

With a lot of responses like this (the video, not your post), my position is that they are responses right before the worst case scenario. I'd need to feel a good MT clinch (@Tony Dismukes: next time??) to see what I think it leaves available. But as they are moving into the clinch - before they get that last bit of restriction - this would be available. This, by the way, is true of a lot of aiki techniques, in my opinion - they are an answer for right before the worst case, but not right after.

That is very true it is don't wait for the worst case get your behind in gear before that happens

 

[now disabled]

Yeah, I'd want someone who knows a MT clinch well, and also knows this kind of ukemi well.

It getting all the players in place and that is always the hard bit

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Make sure your uke knows how to breakfall and take ukemi and ummm his insurance up to date just in case lol

Unfortunately, I don't have an uke for this kind of thing right now. When I visit my old school, I can probably get someone for some basic exploration, but not for full-speed work on this kind of thing with full pressure testing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is very true it is don't wait for the worst case get your behind in gear before that happens

Agreed. Part of the issue I've seen with classical Aikido - as I've seen it taught - is that it doesn't teach enough of what to do to get to those points (striking to control distance and upset timing/balance), nor what to do if you miss them (how to deal with situations where you can't stay so aiki).

 

[now disabled]

Unfortunately, I don't have an uke for this kind of thing right now. When I visit my old school, I can probably get someone for some basic exploration, but not for full-speed work on this kind of thing with full pressure testing.

I totally understand that ...and that leads to another thread that in it was mentioned ethics ...as you know the uke might not be able to take it so you as you said will not go full out and that in my view shows something good

 

[now disabled]

Agreed. Part of the issue I've seen with classical Aikido - as I've seen it taught - is that it doesn't teach enough of what to do to get to those points (striking to control distance and upset timing/balance), nor what to do if you miss them (how to deal with situations where you can't stay so aiki).

No it don't as it has got lost in the peace and love and no harm thing (which is ok if that there way ) and always waiting and definitely the atemi is rarely taught and as you say it more than just knowing how to punch kick strike call it as you will ...it why and the reason you have to

 

[Martial D]

I really do not know why you even bother to post lol as every vid or post gets the same response and then mostly you go on to and have done to slang of recognised shihan etc ...even the vid you did post you obviously had no idea at all that what you were posting was Tomiki Aikido or if you want it precise Shodokan Aikido so why bother why bother at all why not just put anything Aikido related on ignore lol

LOL there you go again. Look, it's like this; the fact that you are talking about aikido isn't a problem for me. In fact, one of the people I respect most here, and have the most productive discussions with, is primarily an aikido practitioner.

The problem is you keep making claims but are unable to provide any evidence to support them. At this point you are basically talking religion.

 

[now disabled]

LOL there you go again. Look, it's like this; the fact that you are talking about aikido isn't a problem for me. In fact, one of the people I respect most here, and have the most productive discussions with, is primarily an aikido practitioner.

The problem is you keep making claims but are unable to provide any evidence to support them. At this point you are basically talking religion.

Umm I am not you posted a vid and had no idea what you were posting ...I am not getting at you at all

and religion oh please stop right there as ummm unless you know anything about the oomoto I really would not go there and as I constantly say that atemi and tweaking and yes actually hurt the opponent it is well kinda the opposite to the oomoto lol

 

[Martial D]

Umm I am not you posted a vid and had no idea what you were posting ...I am not getting at you at all

and religion oh please stop right there as ummm unless you know anything about the oomoto I really would not go there and as I constantly say that atemi and tweaking and yes actually hurt the opponent it is well kinda the opposite to the oomoto lol

What? The only video I posted was that aikido match, to show that it looks nothing in practice like any of the choreography you have demonstrated.

The thing is I tend to take the science of martial combat quite seriously,and as such I think faith based martial arts beliefs are antithesis to that and can cause not only stagnation, but real potential danger to those that buy into them. I'd be saying the exact same thing if you practiced ANY style and made logistical claims of effectiveness while acting downright belligerent when probed for actual evidence to support them.

 

[lansao]

What? The only video I posted was that aikido match, to show that it looks nothing in practice like any of the choreography you have demonstrated.

The thing is I tend to take the science of martial combat quite seriously,and as such I think faith based martial arts beliefs are antithesis to that and can cause not only stagnation, but real potential danger to those that buy into them. I'd be saying the exact same thing if you practiced ANY style and made logistical claims of effectiveness while acting downright belligerent when probed for actual evidence to support them.

 

[now disabled]

What? The only video I posted was that aikido match, to show that it looks nothing in practice like any of the choreography you have demonstrated.

The thing is I tend to take the science of martial combat quite seriously,and as such I think faith based martial arts beliefs are antithesis to that and can cause not only stagnation, but real potential danger to those that buy into them. I'd be saying the exact same thing if you practiced ANY style and made logistical claims of effectiveness while acting downright belligerent when probed for actual evidence to support them.

Yes that vid would look diff as unless you actually know what it is .............and why it is..................then well

You are entitled to your view of whatever you want to call what you do etc but well if you look deeper then you may find that as you put it religion is involved (I use that word not just in the western sense) and well it is your opinion and we have to agree to disagree

 

[Martial D]

Yes that vid would look diff as unless you actually know what it is .............and why it is..................then well

You are entitled to your view of whatever you want to call what you do etc but well if you look deeper then you may find that as you put it religion is involved (I use that word not just in the western sense) and well it is your opinion and we have to agree to disagree

Fair enough. One last thought.

Would you trust a car if all the crash testing was done at 1/10th speed, into padded objects?

I hope the answer is no. Be well

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I get your point however to actually get a Thai fighter to actually perform as nage well i am not sure on as if it was performed and the uke doesn't or can't take the breakfall or knows how to take ukemi then well it might kinda hurt a person

There are some of us who know Muay Thai and also can do decent ukemi.

With a lot of responses like this (the video, not your post), my position is that they are responses right before the worst case scenario. I'd need to feel a good MT clinch (@Tony Dismukes: next time??) to see what I think it leaves available. But as they are moving into the clinch - before they get that last bit of restriction - this would be available. This, by the way, is true of a lot of aiki techniques, in my opinion - they are an answer for right before the worst case, but not right after.

Yeah, I'd want someone who knows a MT clinch well, and also knows this kind of ukemi well.

You can try it on me next time you come up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are some of us who know Muay Thai and also can do decent ukemi.





You can try it on me next time you come up.

I figured I could. You're easy like that.

 

[now disabled]

There are some of us who know Muay Thai and also can do decent ukemi.


I do not doubt that at all sir and I respect that


You can try it on me next time you come up.

 

[hoshin1600]

I get your point however to actually get a Thai fighter to actually perform as nage well i am not sure on as if it was performed and the uke doesn't or can't take the breakfall or knows how to take ukemi then well it might kinda hurt a person

Thats kind of a non issue. MMA guys who do Muay Thai know how to fall.

the bigger question is along the lines of; what is Aikido? in another thread i posted a Krav Maga guy doing nikkyo. is that Aikido? is that Krav Maga?
the answer is not so obvious. what is a style? how do you define it? if krav, karate, kung -fu, judo and aikido all do the same technique what style are you doing?
digging into this question it becomes apparent that the techniques do not define the style.
in my training i do kotegaeshi, as well as ikkyo, nikkko and sankyo but i am not doing aikido.
making a claim that aikido works in the street is not the same as saying kotegaeshi works on the street. because my kotegaeshi is not the same as aikido, well it is,... but it isn't. there is something different and it is not the technique per say. all styles can do the same technique. is that a validation for aikido if it works for another style? i think not.