Kote Gaeshi, Katate Tori or V-lock...

wab25

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Most of our arts contain some form of this lock. This is your standard standing wrist lock, where the other guy reaches in, you parry and using the same side hand, grip his hand around the base of the thumb and apply a bent wrist lock.

Example (only given to define which lock I am talking about... the throw part is extra):

In this thread I am hoping we can share and discuss the details of this lock. What are things you commonly seen done incorrectly? And what things do you do to correct those problems?

I will start with one of the most common problems I see when people attempt this lock. One of the problems I commonly see with this lock is that the person doing the lock, tries to make the lock happen outside of their own power zone. The lock is not done on their own centerline, they are reaching either to the side, or way to far forward or bring the lock up near face level. Once they get the lock out side their power zone, it becomes very hard to get enough power to apply the lock... and most of the time, uke is in better balance than tori, thus easily able to resist the lock.

To correct this, I have students parry the reach, apply their grip and then bring uke's wrist to their own belt. The back of uke's hand needs to be against tori's belt, on his centerline. This ensures that uke's balance and structure are compromised and makes it easier for tori to have good structure. Tori can then apply the lock using his hips to directly apply the power to lock. As the student gets better, he can allow space between the hand and the belt... but he must keep the lock on his centerline and about belt level and drive the power through his hip motion.

I would love to hear common problems you guys see and solutions. The idea here is to discuss how to improve the finer details of this common lock, across arts.
 

Buka

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I so love wrist locks, and I look forward to discussing this. But my wife is giving me serious stink eye because I have errands to run that I'm already way late for.

I think of wrist locks as techniques of opportunity. Recognizing the opportunities is big deal. I think the biggest mistake I see is people not using their body in conjunction with what they're trying to accomplish with the wrist lock.

I'll get back to this later. After I get out of the dog house!
 
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wab25

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Can't wait for you to get back. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
 

dancingalone

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In this thread I am hoping we can share and discuss the details of this lock. What are things you commonly seen done incorrectly? And what things do you do to correct those problems?

The big one from an Aikikai aikido perspective is not moving from the center. One way to explain this is the beginning student allows his body to separate and he moves his arms and hands independent of his center mass. The arms can be early or late in relation to the body. This of course has the effect of lessening the overall authority that can be applied to uke. We seek to separate uke from his whole self not ourselves.
 

Hanzou

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Hmmm, surprised to see 10th Planet guys doing the "catching wrist out of the air" stuff. Typically Bjj guys do wrist locks after they have dominant position.
 
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wab25

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The big one from an Aikikai aikido perspective is not moving from the center. One way to explain this is the beginning student allows his body to separate and he moves his arms and hands independent of his center mass. The arms can be early or late in relation to the body. This of course has the effect of lessening the overall authority that can be applied to uke. We seek to separate uke from his whole self not ourselves.
How do you correct that from the Aikikai aikido perspective?
 

Hanzou

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Hmm, my video didn't show, and I can't edit. Anyway, I think this video is illustrative of what I was talking about;

 

dancingalone

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How do you correct that from the Aikikai aikido perspective?

There are many ways and many drills. One of the most fundamental I favor is to revisit the happo undo stepping and turning exercise and do so with the arms and hands "alive feeling". You can also play with a partner and take turns pushing and pulling his arms while going through variations of the eight directions.
 
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wab25

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I'll throw out one more common problem I see with this art. Many times the person doing the art, will wrap their fingers around the wrist joint itself. Many times, its when they add their second hand for power, that they grab the wrist joint. This actually prevents the lock from happening.

I explain to them that when a boxer wraps his hands, a large portion of what he is wrapping is that wrist joint, to support it and prevent it from bending. If you grab the wrist and support it, it makes the lock harder to get, since you are countering the lock yourself. No, the analogy by itself never works.... but, in the beginning of class when we do the wrist stretching exercises... it then becomes easy to refer back to that analogy. Then they can slowly feel the difference in the stretch as they do it to themselves, with the fingers in the wrist joint and then without. We also have them do this lock slow, until they can get the proper grip, without supporting the wrist that they are attacking, before we let them speed up.
 

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Another common beginning 'error' is a lack of awareness of Uke's attacking capability. Students need to move in such a way as to neutralize the chances of being punched (for example) once they have some experience. That alone is one of the key parts of understanding aiki because you also understand how your opponent moves towards you and is trying to deliver force.
 

Buka

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A problem I've seen with people attempting to grab and put on a wrist lock is when the other person is going kind of nuts. (not dojo, outside) Before you can get any wrist lock on, you have the end the violence first. Then go for the wrist lock. If it happens to be available. It's why I call small locks - techniques of opportunity.

I like wrist locks, trained them a lot, all kinds. But like anything else, sometimes it doesn't work like you want it to...or hoped it would.

I had a gooseneck on somebody once, had it good, too. But he didn't care, so I amped it up. Ended up breaking his wrist, and I didn't want to.

We used to have a nice flow drill with wrist locks, using a compliant partner who would let you go from one to another without breaking contact. Not for beginners, you have to be able to do them to a non compliant person first, and that's usually a one wrist lock at a time thing.

But in the drill you would go through every wrist lock, transitioning from one to the next either by changing position, angling yours or his body, shoving etc. Then do the same with his other hand/arm.

Then you do it blindfolded, just by feel. There wasn't any "aha" moment, you just got better with wrist locks as time went on.

And there's a few wrist locks that transition nicely from one to another when going against superior strength or resistance with non complying people.
 

isshinryuronin

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I think of wrist locks as techniques of opportunity. Recognizing the opportunities is big deal. I think the biggest mistake I see is people not using their body in conjunction with what they're trying to accomplish with the wrist lock.
Agree. I think the 2nd biggest is not attacking the stance at the same time with a foot sweep or buckling the knee. This works in conjunction with the body to greatly aid the wrist lock in making the opponent go horizontal.
 

drop bear

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Hmm, my video didn't show, and I can't edit. Anyway, I think this video is illustrative of what I was talking about;


I have one that I literally can't do unless I am rolling. But I have them in guard and trap their bent wrist in my arm pit with an overhook. Then just lock the elbow.

It is a weird one I keep falling in to but have never drilled.
 

drop bear

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A problem I've seen with people attempting to grab and put on a wrist lock is when the other person is going kind of nuts. (not dojo, outside) Before you can get any wrist lock on, you have the end the violence first. Then go for the wrist lock. If it happens to be available. It's why I call small locks - techniques of opportunity.

I like wrist locks, trained them a lot, all kinds. But like anything else, sometimes it doesn't work like you want it to...or hoped it would.

I had a gooseneck on somebody once, had it good, too. But he didn't care, so I amped it up. Ended up breaking his wrist, and I didn't want to.

We used to have a nice flow drill with wrist locks, using a compliant partner who would let you go from one to another without breaking contact. Not for beginners, you have to be able to do them to a non compliant person first, and that's usually a one wrist lock at a time thing.

But in the drill you would go through every wrist lock, transitioning from one to the next either by changing position, angling yours or his body, shoving etc. Then do the same with his other hand/arm.

Then you do it blindfolded, just by feel. There wasn't any "aha" moment, you just got better with wrist locks as time went on.

And there's a few wrist locks that transition nicely from one to another when going against superior strength or resistance with non complying people.

There is a arm clamp sort of position that works quite well.


At about 3:15 he calls it a torsion grip. I used to figure four. But you can fight the gooseneck pretty well from there.

That torsion grip will take a guy down on its own it is some clever business.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I so love wrist locks, and I look forward to discussing this. But my wife is giving me serious stink eye because I have errands to run that I'm already way late for.

I think of wrist locks as techniques of opportunity. Recognizing the opportunities is big deal. I think the biggest mistake I see is people not using their body in conjunction with what they're trying to accomplish with the wrist lock.

I'll get back to this later. After I get out of the dog house!
The biggest mistake I see is folks not understanding your first point. They try to "make them work", when there's really not a good opening.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I'll throw out one more common problem I see with this art. Many times the person doing the art, will wrap their fingers around the wrist joint itself. Many times, its when they add their second hand for power, that they grab the wrist joint. This actually prevents the lock from happening.

I explain to them that when a boxer wraps his hands, a large portion of what he is wrapping is that wrist joint, to support it and prevent it from bending. If you grab the wrist and support it, it makes the lock harder to get, since you are countering the lock yourself. No, the analogy by itself never works.... but, in the beginning of class when we do the wrist stretching exercises... it then becomes easy to refer back to that analogy. Then they can slowly feel the difference in the stretch as they do it to themselves, with the fingers in the wrist joint and then without. We also have them do this lock slow, until they can get the proper grip, without supporting the wrist that they are attacking, before we let them speed up.
In my experience, this is often because they focus on gripping with the index finger. Unless their partner has a much larger hand, this can leave the pinky across the wrist joint. I fix it by getting them to focus on the grip with the last 3 fingers, which there's always room for.
 
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wab25

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But like anything else, sometimes it doesn't work like you want it to...or hoped it would.
I agree with this... but this is a problem that can be addressed. Its a problem of semantics and definitions.

When someone says "wrist locks work" we all think they mean, "I caught the other guys hand out of the air, twisted it around, and the guy went up on his tip toes and begged for mercy." When sensei demonstrated it, thats what happened. When people say that they don't work, they usually mean, that they have never seen sensei's demo happen in MMA.

I had one kid train with me for a while. He was super flexible. You could twist his wrist for days, and he would be able to move with it, so that it didn't hurt him at all. The other students got frustrated, because he kept saying "see, it doesn't work." So, I used him for uke for my next demo for the class. I twisted his wrist around, he moved with it and showed how it didn't hurt. I asked him to hit me as hard as he could. He could reach me with his free hand, just barely. He certainly could not get any power behind it at all. He couldn't kick me, because if he picked up either foot, he would fall. I demonstrated how I could hit him with my free hand, with plenty of power and he had plenty of targets to hit that were unprotected. I could also knee him and kick him. I said to the class, looks like it works pretty good... he can't attack me, but I can damage him or put him on the ground. I wanted everyone to understand that tapping out is not the only working answer. ( I then added in a few extra small details... and lit up his wrist good... his eyes bugged out of his face and he could not tap fast enough... I wanted him to understand, that they can be applied to him as well)

Now, yes, that was another "sensei demo." And yes I set it up a bit. But, the point still stands. If you get a decent grip, and get half way to putting the lock on, and the other guy pulls out of it... it still worked. First, most of the time they will give up their structure, balance or both to escape. There is your opening. Even if you grab for the wrist, and they immediately pull it away, they created an opening. If you have practiced them a lot, you should get familiar with how people move to get out of them and what openings they present while doing so. The second thing to realize is that they can give you the initiative. When you go for the wrist lock and they escape it, they just reacted to you. You now have the initiative to try to keep them reacting to you, instead of you reacting to them.

This works great when sparring with karate students. If I try to immediately hip throw them, they keep their distance and hit me a lot. However, if I grab their wrist, as they hold it out in guard, I never seem to get the lock. But, they do pull it away, and I can follow that in closing distance to get my hip throws in. (I usually just load them up on my hip, both their feet off the floor and pause to let them regroup...) I have also learned to throw punches and kicks behind "failed" wrist lock attempts. A fun combo I find is to start with a "failed" foot sweep. If you surprise them enough and sweep their foot before they pull it away, they usually extend their arms... grab one of the those wrists for a "failed" wrist lock and you can usually have them half way thrown before you ever enter with your hip.

Change your definition of "wrist locks work" to mean "creates movement and openings in the other guy" and you will find that they "work" a lot more. Add to that definition that they "also can give you the initiative," and they work even more often. And, should the opportunity come that you can actually get the lock on, don't pass it up. The look in their face is amazing when you get it right, but you won't see that face too often. See it every time you get the chance ;)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Hmmm, surprised to see 10th Planet guys doing the "catching wrist out of the air" stuff. Typically Bjj guys do wrist locks after they have dominant position.
You can do this when you shake your opponent's hand. I call it "devil's hand shake". Whenever you use both hands to shake your opponent's single hand, your opponent will be in trouble.

MA is to use the right key to open the right lock. Some locking skill works well in a special situation only. If I sit down on the ground, your hip throw will never work on me. If the opportunity is not available, the technique will not work.

There is a finger lock that you pull your opponent's thumb away from his other 4 fingers. It's an excellent technique to use when someone holds on his steering wheel and refuses to comes out of his car.

devil-hand-shake-1.gif
 
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Buka

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I agree with this... but this is a problem that can be addressed. Its a problem of semantics and definitions.

When someone says "wrist locks work" we all think they mean, "I caught the other guys hand out of the air, twisted it around, and the guy went up on his tip toes and begged for mercy." When sensei demonstrated it, thats what happened. When people say that they don't work, they usually mean, that they have never seen sensei's demo happen in MMA.

I had one kid train with me for a while. He was super flexible. You could twist his wrist for days, and he would be able to move with it, so that it didn't hurt him at all. The other students got frustrated, because he kept saying "see, it doesn't work." So, I used him for uke for my next demo for the class. I twisted his wrist around, he moved with it and showed how it didn't hurt. I asked him to hit me as hard as he could. He could reach me with his free hand, just barely. He certainly could not get any power behind it at all. He couldn't kick me, because if he picked up either foot, he would fall. I demonstrated how I could hit him with my free hand, with plenty of power and he had plenty of targets to hit that were unprotected. I could also knee him and kick him. I said to the class, looks like it works pretty good... he can't attack me, but I can damage him or put him on the ground. I wanted everyone to understand that tapping out is not the only working answer. ( I then added in a few extra small details... and lit up his wrist good... his eyes bugged out of his face and he could not tap fast enough... I wanted him to understand, that they can be applied to him as well)

Now, yes, that was another "sensei demo." And yes I set it up a bit. But, the point still stands. If you get a decent grip, and get half way to putting the lock on, and the other guy pulls out of it... it still worked. First, most of the time they will give up their structure, balance or both to escape. There is your opening. Even if you grab for the wrist, and they immediately pull it away, they created an opening. If you have practiced them a lot, you should get familiar with how people move to get out of them and what openings they present while doing so. The second thing to realize is that they can give you the initiative. When you go for the wrist lock and they escape it, they just reacted to you. You now have the initiative to try to keep them reacting to you, instead of you reacting to them.

This works great when sparring with karate students. If I try to immediately hip throw them, they keep their distance and hit me a lot. However, if I grab their wrist, as they hold it out in guard, I never seem to get the lock. But, they do pull it away, and I can follow that in closing distance to get my hip throws in. (I usually just load them up on my hip, both their feet off the floor and pause to let them regroup...) I have also learned to throw punches and kicks behind "failed" wrist lock attempts. A fun combo I find is to start with a "failed" foot sweep. If you surprise them enough and sweep their foot before they pull it away, they usually extend their arms... grab one of the those wrists for a "failed" wrist lock and you can usually have them half way thrown before you ever enter with your hip.

Change your definition of "wrist locks work" to mean "creates movement and openings in the other guy" and you will find that they "work" a lot more. Add to that definition that they "also can give you the initiative," and they work even more often. And, should the opportunity come that you can actually get the lock on, don't pass it up. The look in their face is amazing when you get it right, but you won't see that face too often. See it every time you get the chance ;)

Very important points in this post. Very.

I'm glad you brought them up, thanks.
 

Buka

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You can do this when you shake your opponent's hand. I call it "devil's hand shake". Whenever you use both hands to shake your opponent's single hand, your opponent will be in trouble.

MA is to use the right key to open the right lock. Some locking skill works well in a special situation only. If I sit down on the ground, your hip throw will never work on me. If the opportunity is not available, the technique will not work.

There is a finger lock that you pull your opponent's thumb away from his other 4 fingers. It's an excellent technique to use when someone holds on his steering wheel and refuses to comes out of his car.

devil-hand-shake-1.gif

I always enjoyed this takedown, it came in handy several times over the years. Wally Jay taught me that.
 

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