Korean Subak's real rules & motions proven by scholarly proofs & news organizations

Discussion in 'Korean Martial Arts - General' started by Steven Lee, Jan 22, 2019.

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  1. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    According to "Chosun Common Sense Q & A", which was Namseon Choi's 1937 newspaper column, "Subak & Subyuk were the same, a fight game which became a drinking game, children's game. The method is fist, grab moving front & back. Hand & fingers bend."

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp0fnPMWwAIfsuM.jpg

    In 1964, the ethnologist Gimu Hong representing North Korean Science Center Anthropology & Ethnology Research Institute published this book, "there was a game called Subak. This knocks down opponent with punches. Subak was liked by warriors in that era."

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnvJGLBWwAAauDM.jpg

    Medieval Chinese book Yongdangsopoom recorded Subak is also called Tagwon in 1621. It also recorded Subak had Subub, techniques. “백타(白打)는 곧 수박으로 겨루는 것이다. 당나라 장종(莊宗)은 수박으로 내기를 하였으며, 장경아(張敬兒)는 수박으로 공을 세웠다. 세속에서는 타권(打拳)이라고도 하며, 소주인이 말하길 사람의 뼈를 부러 뜨려 죽음에 이르게 할 수 있다. 빨리 죽이고 천천히 죽이는 것은 오로지 수법(手法)에 달려 있다.”

    https://i.imgur.com/4dqubwA.png

    Translation: "Baekta is competing with Subak. Tang's Jangjong gambled with Subak. Jang Gyunga made accomplishments with Subak. Civilians also call Subak as Takwon. Soju people say it can break human's bones to kill. Killing fast or killing slow depends on the (Subeob) techniques." There are also reputable archaeological Subak wall drawings (including frontal slaps) which represent the real life Subak scenes back in the era.

    Medieval Korean Royal Journal also describes the rules & motions of Takwon. “유격이 타권의 기법을 앞에서 보여줬다. 그 법은 뛰면서 몸을 날려 두 손으로 자기 얼굴이나 목, 혹은 등을 치며, 가슴과 배를 번갈아치기도 했다. 볼기와 허벅지를 문지르기도 하며, 손을 쓰는 것이 어찌나 빠르고 민첩한지 사람이 감히 그 앞에 접근할 수 없을 정도였다(선조실록 권99, 31년 4월 경신)".

    https://i.imgur.com/4dqubwA.png

    Translation: "Yugyeok showed Tagwon's techniques at the front. The method is leaping the body, with 2 hands, hitting his own face, neck & back, hitting chest & stomach. Also rubbing butt & thighs. His hand strikes were really fast & agile that a person couldn't go near his front." Subak Dance also shows the dance performer slapping his own body as well as slapping an opponent's (dance partner's) body such as slapping his chest (frontal slap to opponent's chest).

    Today, Subak is sometimes imagined by some people to be using palms only (or hitting side only) because the name Subak means clapping. There's no logical necessity; there are no counter evidences nor counter logic to Subak having frontal slaps & punch.



    Subak's real rules with physical evidences. Subak means clap. I've seen some people claiming that a sport named clap must have (or is likely to have) only slaps or hits only side like clapping. This has no logic at all. Just because a sport is named clap doesn't mean such. As for the real rule with evidences, here are the following.

    "Chosun Common Sense Q & A is Namseon Choi's 1937 newspaper column", "Subak & Subyuk were the same, a fight game which became a drinking game, children's game. The method is fist, grab moving front & back. Hand & fingers bend." It had Frontal slap + punch. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp0fnPMWwAIfsuM.jpg
    Older references with inherited knowledge are more credible than recent references with imagination or agenda (bending logic to meet goals). Also, what's important is whether the sources are academically reputable. All my sources are academically reputable; most of the references I show from them also happen to be old as a bonus quality. That record says Subak also uses punch, not just hand (bent into palm). It also says the fist moves front & back.

    This Kokuryeo Subak picture with 2 mustache men look Subak & the left man looks frontal slapping (like Subyukta). & Subak punched. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2_mustache_Kokuryeo_Korean_Subak_frontal_slap.jpg

    Here’s another reputable archaeological picture as historians commonly use pictures as proofs. Reputable archaeological pictures representing real life scenes & sports prove such scenes & motions existed. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Kokuryeo_Korean_frontal_slapping_halfway_to_head.jpg
    In 1964, the ethnologist Gimu Hong representing North Korean Science Center Anthropology & Ethnology Research Institute published this book, "there was a game called Subak. This knocks down opponent with punches. Subak was liked by warriors in that era." https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnvJGLBWwAAauDM.jpg
    "Yugyuk showed Tagwon", "with 2 hands, hit his face, neck, back, chest, stomach", "really agile in punching such that no one could go near him", I thought that Yugyuk exhibition record also mentioned slapping forehead, but I can't find it. Tagwon punched. http://cafe384.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_search_read?grpid=12vrX&fldid=1LsP&datanum=196
    Yongdangsopoom recorded Subak is also called Tagwon in 1621. It also recorded Subak had Subub, techniques. Korea also recorded Baekta became Gwonbub; Korea had Baekta besides "Subak". https://i.imgur.com/4dqubwA.png
    By these physical evidences, I conclude that Korean Subak in Korea had straight frontal slap & punch.

    Like Seomundang's photo 100 years ago & Stewart's words, Subyukta had frontal slap, which likely existed in the older version Subak before Subyukta. Subak's slap differs from a regular slap but is a hard swat (palm heel hitting, pressing). + Subak punched. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DA8o34KXkAA1YdF.jpg

    Subyukta Clap Strike always slapped front like Stewart said. "The hands are then clapped, and opened, palms out, to strike those of the other player". She also recorded it was also called Ken, fist. Fist can be made with common sense. https://i.imgur.com/ygSH7dx.jpg

    Subak's name's definition "clap" supposed to mean something in terms of Subak's sports contents? I've met people who claim that, because Subak's name means clap, Subak should use palm only or hits side only (like clapping). I've also seen some people who claim that, because Subyukta uses palm only, Subak also should use palm only. These claims are not logical. Many sports like volleyball, baseball, curling have sports motions not in the sports titles. Even regular words like horseplay or thunderclap mean different things with jargons (like thunder's clap not being hands nor side-hitting), not to mention including things outside the names. Also, Subyukta uses palms only cause it's convenient for the gaming, practicing purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean Subak also should be slapping with palm only. Explicit proofs outweigh such implicit wishes & imaginations. Sports names do not describe the entire sports; sports jargons don't mean the same as regular words; games created out of sports don't necessarily represent the entire original sports. Subyukta came out of Subak.


    Subak has punch as a proven academic fact, logical & verified. On top of that, some people get hung up on Subak having straight slap. There is straight slap in Subyuk (which came from Subak), Taekkyeon, Subak Dance, Korean Gwonbeop, etc.

    https://i.imgur.com/ygSH7dx.jpg
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DA8o34KXkAA1YdF.jpg
    Also, ancient Kokuryeo's Subak wall drawings show frontal slaps, which some of them look straight slaps. Kokuryeo had a limited number of sports; those reputable archaeological wall drawings can only be matched with few sports including Subak; Subak has a limited number of motions which can be matched with the pictures by the process of elimination. So, Subak had punch & straight slaps aside from having side slaps like cheek slaps (not that different in motion for an arm-extending swing hitting front). Aside from Subak having straight slaps, some people get hung up on swing-slap hitting front. They claim swing trajectory is banana. Consider half a banana with its tip hitting front & middle. (Whether punch or slap, a swing starts at the side of the body; it doesn't start at the middle of the body, which is why it ends at the middle & front of the body.) Also, curve & circle are not the same; curve doesn't have to be consistent in angle-change. Curve's angle change can be different at a different point of curve, flatter or curvier. There's no such thing as flailing in swing. That's not how a swing is done. Jack Dempsey is a reputable source for arc swing hitting front.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXUqNqgWwAAO2pP.png
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXUpdySWEAAmqLe.png

    The swing punching motion starts at Figure 22A (elbow bent, fist loaded at the side of the body), then the swing punching motion ends at Figure 23B (arm fully extended, fist punching front although swing can hit side by choice too). Subak had a swing slap hitting front or side (can do both by choice, by different curves); Subak had straight slap like Chinese Iron Palm breaking layers of cinder blocks with a straight slap 100 years ago (photographed); Subak had punch. It's arguable whether Subak had all those from the beginning of the sport or evolved in the ancient time eventually, but Subak had them anyway visible already in the ancient & medieval eras.


    Traditional Subak had become a dance; it has passed down in Manchuria. The following Subak moves in the Subak Dance are from Daehansubakhyubhoi (Korean Subak Federation). "기본틀; 수박치기 - 손바닥 치고 손등 치기, 가슴치고 손등치기, 제몸치기(이마, 뺨, 어깨, 옆구리, 허벅, 발바닥), 상대 몸치기, 날개펴기, 무릎 세우기".

    http://xn--bh3bz3i.net/tech/board.php?board=fghff&page=1&command=body&no=14
    Translation: "Basic framework; Subak strikes - hit palm then the back of hand, slap chest then back of hand, hit your own body (forehead, cheek, shoulder, waist, thigh, foot), hit opponent's (dance partner's) body, open wings, raise knee".

    "마무리; 어깨치기에 들어막기로 응수하고 양손 떼밀기하다가 옆구리치기에 무릎 세우기로 방어한다. 가슴치기에 슬쯕대어 피하고 이어서 상대허리를 감아 들고 힘있게 꺽듯이 하다가 엉덩방아를 찧게 한다. 다른 예도 있다."

    http://xn--bh3bz3i.net/tech/board.php?board=fghff&page=1&command=body&no=14
    Translation: "Last; slap opponent' shoulder to be corresponded by raising blocking, push opponent with both hands, slap opponent's waist to block by raising knee to defend. Slap opponent's chest to be dodged by swaying. Followed by wrapping opponent's waist with arms, powerfully bend it then let him fall on his ***. There are other cases."

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Manchuria_Korean%27s_Subak_Dance_%28Korean_Chinese%27s_Subakchoom%29.jpg

    Subak Dance shows Subak, including slapping a dance partner's chest (frontal slap) as well as dodging it. Subak Dance has moves such as slapping his own body particularly forehead, cheeks, chest, shoulders, thighs, feet (frontal slaps & side slaps), and also slapping the dance partner's body in the same manner. This dance is also popular in North Korea but was extinct in South Korea until recently. There is also the motions of making fists in the dance, consistent with the Subak rules historically corroborated by many authorities of Korean sports history. Manchuria's Subak Dance is the ancient Subak made into a dance. It's a great reference to corroborate what kind of moves were in Subak (including frontal slap, making fist). Subak Dance is passed down by Manchuria Koreans and North Korea today. It's recognized & certified by Chinese government as a traditional culture officially. Subak Dance's authenticity is corroborated by its widespread contents (Manchuria & North Korea) as well as its history (Subak Dance was seen 100 years ago). In Subak Dance, when hitting his own forehead & chest (as well as hitting a dance partner's body), frontal slaps are shown.

    "일제강점기의 반도의 舞姬, 최승희여사(1911 ~ 1969. 8. 8)도 手拍舞를 무대에서 공연한 적이 있다하며 그의 저서인 "조선족 무용기본동작(1978)"중에 수박치기가 포함되어 있다."

    http://xn--bh3bz3i.net/tech/board.php?board=fghff&page=1&command=body&no=14
    Translation: "During Japanese occupation of Korea, Seungheui Choi (1911 ~ 1969. 8. 8) also has performed Subak Dance in her stage. Her book "Korean Chinese Basic Dance Motions" (1978) includes Subak strikes."

    Subak Dance also has fist motions although slapping is more convenient for practicing, dancing, gaming. "손동작; 손목 꺽기, 손가락 꼬기, 손목 흔들기, 주먹쥐고 앞, 뒤로 흔들기".

    http://xn--bh3bz3i.net/tech/board.php?board=fghff&page=1&command=body&no=14

    Translation: "Hand motions; bending wrist, crossing fingers, shaking wrists, making fist then rocking it front & back".


    There are people who claim that, because Subak's name means clap, Subak should use palm only or hits side only (like clapping). There are also some people who claim that, because Subyukta uses palm only, Subak also should use palm only. These claims are not logical. Many sports like volleyball, baseball, curling have sports motions not in the sports titles. Even regular words like horseplay or thunderclap mean different things with jargons (like thunder's clap not being hands nor side-hitting), not to mention including things outside the names.

    Also, Subyukta (which came from Subak according to medieval encyclopedia Jaemulbo) uses palms only cause it's convenient for the gaming, practicing purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean Subak also should be slapping with palm only. Subyuk is a part of Subak; it's not the entire Subak; Subak has frontal slaps like Subyuk which has a nickname Sonbbyukchigi (clap strike); Subak also has punches unlike Subyuk although corroborated by Subyuk's another nickname Ken (fist).

    https://i.imgur.com/ygSH7dx.jpg

    There's no explicit proof that dictates Subak's rules from Subyuk's motions. Explicit proofs outweigh such implicit wishes & imaginations. Sports names do not describe the entire sports; sports jargons don't mean the same as regular words; new games created out of original sports don't necessarily represent the entire original sports. (Subyuk came out of Subak.) Subak & Subyuk are separate games although related; fist can be made with common sense; Subak had punch unlike Subyuk which only had frontal slaps & side slaps. Subyuk had frontal slaps & side slaps; Subak had punches, frontal slaps, side slaps. Also, even Subyuk had nicknames like Clap Strike (Sonbbyukchigi) & Fist (Ken). "SYOU-PYEK-TCHI-KI - HAND-CLAPPING", "It is usually played to the accompaniment of songs, and receives the name of Ken (Chinese, K'un), 'fist.'", "The hands are then clapped, and opened, palms out, to strike those of the other player".

    https://i.imgur.com/ygSH7dx.jpg

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DA8o34KXkAA1YdF.jpg

    Subyuk had straight slaps despite its nicknames "fist" & "hand clapping". Subak had punch.

    As for the relationship between Korean wrestling (Ssireum) & Subak, the direct interpretation of the traditional record "Byun is Subak, Muheui is wrestling. This is today's Taekkyeon", it directly means "hurrying is Subak (Korean wrestling's goal is takedown & knockdown), gaming is wrestling. This (wrestling) is today's Taekkyeon" in euphemism. Hurrying wrestling's goal with strikes is Subak; Subak became Sibak; Ssireum became Taekkyeon; Taekkyeon has both regular Taekkyeon & Sibak (also Taekkyeon according to medieval encyclopedia Jaemulbo) in Taekkyeon.
     
  2. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    ==Subak having punch==

    Some people claim that Subak shouldn't have punch cause it is named "clap". There's no explicit logic nor proof that a sport named clap shouldn't have punch. On the other hand, there are many reputable references (mainly scholarship & news organizations) that prove Subak had both frontal slap (including swing slap & straight slap) & punches aside from also having side slap (cheek or jaw slap is halfway frontal in 45 degrees).




    Even Korean Subak Federation (대한수박협회, Daehansubakhyeobhoi) says that Subak had frontal slap & punch. They teach Subak even today.




    http://www.xn--bh3bz3i.net/



    Medieval Chinese book Yongdangsopoom (涌幢小品) recorded Subak is also called Tagwon in 1621. It also recorded Subak had Subeob, techniques. “백타(白打)는 곧 수박으로 겨루는 것이다. 당나라 장종(莊宗)은 수박으로 내기를 하였으며, 장경아(張敬兒)는 수박으로 공을 세웠다. 세속에서는 타권(打拳)이라고도 하며, 소주인이 말하길 사람의 뼈를 부러 뜨려 죽음에 이르게 할 수 있다. 빨리 죽이고 천천히 죽이는 것은 오로지 수법(手法)에 달려 있다.”

    https://mookas.com/news/11150

    Translation: "Baekta is competing with Subak. Tang's Jangjong gambled with Subak. Jang Gyunga made accomplishments with Subak. Civilians also call Subak as Takwon. Soju people say it can break human's bones to kill. Killing fast or killing slow depends on the (Subeob) techniques." There are also reputable archaeological Subak wall drawings (including frontal slaps) which represent the real life Subak scenes back in the era.

    Medieval Korean Royal Journal also describes the rules & motions of Takwon. “유격이 타권의 기법을 앞에서 보여줬다. 그 법은 뛰면서 몸을 날려 두 손으로 자기 얼굴이나 목, 혹은 등을 치며, 가슴과 배를 번갈아치기도 했다. 볼기와 허벅지를 문지르기도 하며, 손을 쓰는 것이 어찌나 빠르고 민첩한지 사람이 감히 그 앞에 접근할 수 없을 정도였다(선조실록 권99, 31년 4월 경신)".

    https://mookas.com/news/11150

    Translation: "Yugyeok showed Tagwon's techniques at the front. The method is leaping the body, with 2 hands, hitting his own face, neck & back, hitting chest & stomach. Also rubbing butt & thighs. His hand strikes were really fast & agile that a person couldn't go near his front."


    "수박과 백타를 막연하게 동일시하고 맨손무예를 의미하는 보통명사들이라는 설(設)이 있으나 적어도 위의 타권인 수박은 고유명사인 것(내용 중에 특징적인 기술체계가 있다). 선조실록(동(同) 시대)에 등장하는 타권과 연장선에서 이해 할 필요가 있다. 백타가 태권도경기라면 수박은 태권도를 말한다. 태권도경기와 태권도를 어떻게 같다 할 수 있겠는가?"




    https://mookas.com/news/11150




    Translation: "There is a theory that Subak & Baekta are ambiguously equal, that they are common nouns for barehand martial arts. However, Tagwon described at above is a proper noun (the contents have a unique system of techniques). It should be understood as the extension of Seonjo era's royal Chosun (Korean) journal's Tagwon. If Baekta is Taekwondo sparring, Subak is Taekwondo itself. How can you say Taekwondo competition and Taekwondo are the same?"




    Korean Subak Federation claims that Tagwon & Baekta are different from Subak, and they are a competition method based on Subak. In their claim, Subak would use palms only, but Subak would compete using both punches & slaps for Tagwon & Baekta. However, there are explicit old authentic historical records that Subak itself had punches in the game, not as an extension game of Subak. Like many names of sports & activities such as volleyball, curling, baseball, thunderclap, Subak's name meaning clap has no logical necessity nor proof that it should use palm only nor hit side only. Regardless, Korean Subak Federation agrees that Subak uses punches in Tagwon & Baekta which they claim to be a competition method of Subak. Subak slaps front & side (cheeks), but Subak's application Tagwon punches anyway. Also, there are many reputable & old historical records that Subak itself had punches in the game. In any case, Subak population fought using punches in application of Subak. The only difference is whether Subak itself had punches or Subak's application & competition had punches. The difference is whether Subak used fist in Tagwon only or also in general Subak.

    Subyuk had straight slaps despite its nicknames "fist" & "hand clapping". Subak had punch. Subak's rules & motions include Subyuk motions & slapping side (cheek). Those are not the entire Subak rules & motions; Subak rules & motions include those but have more such as slapping front & punching (front & side). There is no counter evidence (including Subak's name meaning clap) nor counter logic to such historical records proving Subak's rules & motions. There are explicit historical records on Subak's rules & motions including those but having more rules & motions than such being included. Subak had frontal slaps & punches.
     
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  3. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    When Shoubo/Subak was spread to China & Korea, the rules & the sport motions spread and overlapped. Chinese historical records on Shoubo can be used for Korean Subak to a great extent cause they overlap with each other. On Chinese Qin Dynasty's comb (archaeological scholarly source), Shoubo's motions were recorded, which is referenced by Chinese Martial Art Encyclopedia page 5 from China (Chinese Martial Art Encyclopedia Editorial Association). The guy on the right used frontal slap (with palm) on the opponent's frontal face (nose) while the guy on the left defended it with 1 arm while slapping the opponent's chest (another frontal slap) with the other arm.




    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._Dynasty_archaeological_picture_on_a_comb.jpg


    Subak is the same as Chinese Shoubo. It is the same 2 Chinese alphabets 手搏 pronounced differently due to dialectal differences. Chinese pronunciation of Subak is Shoubo. It's not explicitly Korean nor Chinese art but for the whole East Asia. Hurrying (Byun) knockdown with strikes (frontal slap, side slap, punch) is Subak/Shoubo; gaming is wrestling. Shoubo moves include frontal punching.









    Shou bo — Wikipédia




    Shou Bo International avec Maitre YUAN Zumou




    Like other sports such as baseball, volleyball, curling, Subak (means clap in both Korean Baksu & Chinese Shoubo) has a different definition of what it calls clap; the sport has non-clap strikes as well.





    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...stache_Kokuryeo_Korean_Subak_frontal_slap.jpg




    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...o_Korean_frontal_slapping_halfway_to_head.jpg




    Modern Shoubo doesn't have lineage to the older Shoubo, but China still had Shoubo in the older times; Shoubo is Subak. They are the same sports, the same rules, the same word. Older Chinese historical records on older Shoubo apply to Subak as well.
     
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