Korean ROC Bayonet Demonstration!

[shesulsa]

Firstly, let's remember that adam is in the US military.

Second, let's remember that jumping and spinning is clearly useful for demonstration and exercise ... the practicality of a jump-spin kick is little to none. But I find it ironic to hear such a harsh criticism from a hwarangdo stylist.

Remember - what you see in demonstration is rarely what you'll see in h2h or cqc.

 

[hwarang_do_adam]

im all for hwarangdo on a battlefield its just kind of hard to do a 540 jump spin kick with 50 pounds of body armor on your body. all im saying is that jumping around in a combat situation is a little impracticle but if you want to imploy the throws or the joint locks or any one of the different aspects of hwarangdo that would be great.

 

[shesulsa]

As that relates to the original post - some of what we see in demonstration in the video could be considered as agility exercises. If your agility is extremely high - or, let's say higher than common demand or even combat demands - you have a definite advantage, wouldn't you say?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Firstly, let's remember that adam is in the US military.

Congratulations Adam on serving our country! I am very proud of you for that reason. Still that does not make you an expert on combat even if you have been in a little. Experienced yes, expert no! My hope is that you have to see less combat in the immediate future but likely that is not the case. The above clip is a demonstration. What does everyone do in a demonstration? Demonstrate possibilities!

The United States also has great soldier's that are training to defend our country. Still since several of my friends just went through basic they all reported that it was lacking on the H2H side. While that in itself is not very telling because reality is that they will probably never see H2H combat. Be proud of who you represent Adam because the United States Military is the finest that this world has ever seen. It is this way though not because of it's H2H skills but obviously for other reason's! Stay strong and serve proudly!

 

[exile]

I want to point out a few things that tie the demo vid Brian posted to the current situation in South Korea.

A BBC story two years ago observed of life in ROK boot camps that

...living conditions in most barracks remain Spartan, with conscripts often sleeping packed together on the floor. The conditions are little changed from the 1970s, when South Korea was a much poorer country under military dictatorship.
​

Training, also keeping to military standards of a generation earlier, was, according to the report, rigorous and harsh, which dovetails with what my Korean students told me (and I don't think they've told me even half of what they went through), including long treks in their underwear through the snow during winter and severe psychological pressure from DIs attempting to weed out recruits who don't have the requisite iron. In spite of government promises to make the soldiers' human rights more of a priority, things have not improved, I gather; if anything, the steady withdrawal of US troops and the steady belligerance of the North Korean leadership have made it clear to the South Koreans that they may very well be on their own in the near future, with a reckless and hostile regime at their gates, dominated by another seemingly delusional dictator (who is likely to be convinced that his nuclear weapons development program gives him a lot more bluffing room than he had a decade ago, when it almost seemed as though a rapprochement between the ROK and the North might be in the offing). The Korean and Vietnam wars happened a long time ago to us, but not to the Koreans themselves: there is no way for us to visualize the armaggedon-like impact of the wars on the Korean mind-set, particularly in the military. And the treatment of recruits is correspondingly harsh; the comparison with Sparta is an apt one not just in terms of physical comfort but in terms of the brutality of their training. It takes its toll: more than 60 suicides a year amongst new recruits. Severe discipline and harsh training are the default in the ROK military and abuses are typically not investigated.

The guys you're seeing in that demo survived that treatment and demonstrated sufficient skill to be part of a demo unit for which the ROK army has 600,000 soldiers to pick and choose among. They are tough and they are anticipating combat that their national survival depends on. If they lose the next war they have to fight, they lose not just the war but their nation as well. The extreme techniques that they're practicing definitely have a combat value, not because anyone is planning to do a 360 in combat, but because, as suggested in Shesulsa' post above, agility, balance and orientation are crucial battle skills in CQ combat and need to be trained intensely. And jumping/twisting exercises requiring you to identify and strike multiple targets in succession while carrying a heavy combat firearm strikes me as about the most intense kind of training for those fighting skills you can get.

When I raced downhill skiing, I saw a film of part of Jim Hunter's training routine. Hunter was one of the stars of the Crazy Canucks, probably the all-time best Canadian ski team, and he raced downhill mostly, where you get ridiculously fast speeds combined with serious turns on icy, sadistically steep runs. One of the ways Hunter trained was to climb into the outside assembly on a tire on one of the huge farm machines used on his father's farm and have the driver take the machine at around 5mph or so around a field while Hunter spun around inside the tire like a shirt in a clothes dryer. The point was to habituate himself to that kind of severe rotation so that his sense of body orientation and position would become trained to the point where even after a long jump in a complete tuck, landing on a curving track at 70mph or so and maybe another one coming up in few seconds, he would still know exactly which way was up and where his various limbs were in relation tot he track. That's what you do when enough is at stake.

These guys are facing way greater hazards than Jim Hunter was, and are trying to give themselves every chance of surviving and punishing North Korean aggression. They train not just for strength and firing accuracy but for the whole package: balance, orientation, accuracy in H2H, the whole works. You can be quite sure that they know exactly what they're doing and what to do to anyone who confronts them with a bayonet or anything else.

 

[MBuzzy]

Adam has a good point that in modern combat, hand to hand is NOT common at all. And the American military is only now changing our tactics to fight the type of war that we are in. We have trained our troops for a cold war style combat.....not for an insurgency. In the last 7 years, we have learned a lot and are continuing to alter our training tactics.

the vietnam and korean wars were a long time ago. this is not a jackie chan movie if i see you jump in the air and spin im going to take you down. real combat is not like that.

But you have to remember here....that Korea is STILL at war. It isn't an old war. In the JSA (Joint Security Area, aka the area of the DMZ where North Korea and South Korea stare at each other all day long) it is still real war. There are loaded rifles pointed at each other all day long. Granted, nothing happens there because of the armistace, but it is tense nonetheless.

The South Korean troops are trained primarily like we were....for a cold war style conflict. If the Korean war starts again, it is not going to be insurgent combat. It is going to be WW2 style combat....on the ground, a lot of hand to hand, thousands and thousands of DPRK troops pouring across the border and thousands of ROK and US soldiers meeting them. That is of course AFTER the scud attacks and artillery.

And you're right, jumping around and doing spin kicks doesn't help...but these guys have REAL martial arts, hand to hand, and bayonette skill. The US Marines have a silent drill team, the Air Force has an honor guard....we have the same stuff. It is just a demo team, they are not demonstrating battle field tactics, they are demonstrating Jackie Chan style acrobatics.....because people like to watch it. But be assured, underneath, they are deadly.

who do you think that the us troops have been trained to go up against, you think that the us military does not train its troops as good as south korea. I have been in combat sir so i do know what it is like. And in their boot camp did they halfto hump threw 76 miles in 3 days with 100 pounds on their backs threw the mouintans did they get c.s. gassed did they have a drill instructor beat them for not getting 100% dressed in under 1 minute did they live off one M.R.E for three days the list goes on and on so dont even for one second say that my boot camp was a paid holiday.

First off, we are not trained to go against the ROK...and if we did, we would annihilate them. It is a small, under equipped and technologically inferior military. But they are our allies.

Agreed - US Military boot camp is not easy. Especially for Army and Marines, but I can tell you that South Korean boot camp is worse. North Korean is FAR worse. Words like standard of living and safety barely exist there. They DO have CS training, the chemical threat is real there. Do they do forced marches through mountains, yes. Korea is VERY mountainous and when I hiked there, I had 70 year old men BOUND past me. Koreans are comfortable in mountains and train there A LOT. When they aren't dressed in time, their DI does not yell at them....he beats them. And no, they did not live off of MREs.....they really don't have MREs as we think of them. They live off of what they can. With that said, are we trained better or worse than them? I would say better, but I'm biased. I tend to think that the brutality and hardship isn't necessary if training is done properly.

While I was in Korea, I made friends with a lot of ROK soldiers, we worked with them every day. They are behind us technologically, but they make up with it by training HARD. It is a conscript military, things are different there.

Please understand...no one is attacking the US military, there is no need to take any of it personally. In fact, no one had even mentioned the US military. It is possible to compliment another military and not take away from our own. For example, the Israeli Air Force is one of the best trained in the world......that doesn't make ours any worse, but if it came to it, we would simply overwhelm them, in one on one dogfighting, SAME AIRCRAFT, they would have the advantage. In this case, in one on one UNARMED hand to hand combat, the ROK has the advantage against us. That doesn't make the US military any less great or any less trained.

 

[exile]

Agreed - US Military boot camp is not easy. Especially for Army and Marines, but I can tell you that South Korean boot camp is worse. North Korean is FAR worse. Words like standard of living and safety barely exist there. They DO have CS training, the chemical threat is real there. Do they do forced marches through mountains, yes. Korea is VERY mountainous and when I hiked there, I had 70 year old men BOUND past me. Koreans are comfortable in mountains and train there A LOT. When they aren't dressed in time, their DI does not yell at them....he beats them. And no, they did not live off of MREs.....they really don't have MREs as we think of them. They live off of what they can. With that said, are we trained better or worse than them? I would say better, but I'm biased. I tend to think that the brutality and hardship isn't necessary if training is done properly.

While I was in Korea, I made friends with a lot of ROK soldiers, we worked with them every day. They are behind us technologically, but they make up with it by training HARD. It is a conscript military, things are different there.

Please understand...no one is attacking the US military, there is no need to take any of it personally. In fact, no one had even mentioned the US military. It is possible to compliment another military and not take away from our own. For example, the Israeli Air Force is one of the best trained in the world......that doesn't make ours any worse, but if it came to it, we would simply overwhelm them, in one on one dogfighting, SAME AIRCRAFT, they would have the advantage. In this case, in one on one UNARMED hand to hand combat, the ROK has the advantage against us. That doesn't make the US military any less great or any less trained.

Very well said, Craig.

The training over there is hard, cruel and ferocious because the next war for them will be hard, cruel, ferocious and right at their front door. They have exactly one line of defense, their infantry. That's it. They don't do the kind of thing in the video for fun, but because they have no other way to survive. They cannot afford anything but the more effective, businesslike training.

Don't for a moment think that anyone there has forgotten what they went through. As Craig says, they realize that in the end, a war with the North will be decided on the ground, WWII/Korean War style, by the side which manages to kill the greatest number of the other side. They have a huge army and it's still only half the size of their most dangerous enemy's; each of their soldiers has to do twice the work of each North Korean. Jackie Chan is not what they're thinking about when they design their training program.

 

[newGuy12]

the practicality of a jump-spin kick is little to none.

Not if it breaks a few ribs. I've been kicked -- HARD -- with a jump spinning kick before. It will get your attention.:erg:

Now, I don't know anything about soldering. We will have to defer to soldiers for that. But I do know that you don't want to mess with these guys. At all.

 

[hwarang_do_adam]

If someone told you that you had three months to fortify a beach and you had unlimited resources how strong could you make that beach? Tojo in WWII pretty much said that to his Generals, and yet the Army/Marines took the pacific where almost every beach they had to storm was like that. Sounds like you gotta be pretty well trained to do that. Recruit training in the Marine Corps is about three months long. After recruit training you go to a place called Marine combat training which is three weeks of living in a hooch. A hooch is a poncho with two sticks and four steaks (two Marines to one poncho). During M.C.T you go on three humps with about 100 pounds on your back the distances' are three nine and fifteen miles, not easy. after M.C.T you go to your Military Occupational Speciality school or M.O.S school. Depending on your M.O.S it can be a year or longer. After that you get to your duty station and chances are right when to get there you are getting deployed to some warzone. But before you can deploy you halfto go threw pre deployment training. That is another three weeks of hell, and threw all of this you are doing this thing called M.C.M.A.P Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. So i would say that the Marines are pretty well trained.

 

[hwarang_do_adam]

Not if it breaks a few ribs. I've been kicked -- HARD -- with a jump spinning kick before. It will get your attention.:erg:

Now, I don't know anything about soldering. We will have to defer to soldiers for that. But I do know that you don't want to mess with these guys. At all.

a jump spin kick wont hurt when you are wearing body armor tust me we have tested it.

 

[terryl965]

Adam My father was a Marine and was a Master Drill Instructor during WWII and Korea and we live on every base he was at and stayed there when he left for months at a time. The Marine will always have my respect in that I was brought up around them. The only difference I see today versus back then is live ammo. I hope all is well with you and all the men and women who serves this great land of ours.
My hat goes off to you. :asian:

 

[Kacey]

If someone told you that you had three months to fortify a beach and you had unlimited resources how strong could you make that beach? Tojo in WWII pretty much said that to his Generals, and yet the Army/Marines took the pacific where almost every beach they had to storm was like that. Sounds like you gotta be pretty well trained to do that. Recruit training in the Marine Corps is about three months long. After recruit training you go to a place called Marine combat training which is three weeks of living in a hooch. A hooch is a poncho with two sticks and four steaks (two Marines to one poncho). During M.C.T you go on three humps with about 100 pounds on your back the distances' are three nine and fifteen miles, not easy. after M.C.T you go to your Military Occupational Speciality school or M.O.S school. Depending on your M.O.S it can be a year or longer. After that you get to your duty station and chances are right when to get there you are getting deployed to some warzone. But before you can deploy you halfto go threw pre deployment training. That is another three weeks of hell, and threw all of this you are doing this thing called M.C.M.A.P Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. So i would say that the Marines are pretty well trained.

Adam, no one is trying to in any way belittle or malign what those who serve in the US Armed Forces do, or how they are trained - but that that doesn't mean that members of other countries' Armed Forces are badly trained either.

Anyone who serves in their countries' Armed Forces deserves respect and admiration; those, like yourself, who choose to serve (rather than being drafted) deserve even more. :asian:

 

[MBuzzy]

If someone told you that you had three months to fortify a beach and you had unlimited resources how strong could you make that beach? Tojo in WWII pretty much said that to his Generals, and yet the Army/Marines took the pacific where almost every beach they had to storm was like that. Sounds like you gotta be pretty well trained to do that. Recruit training in the Marine Corps is about three months long. After recruit training you go to a place called Marine combat training which is three weeks of living in a hooch. A hooch is a poncho with two sticks and four steaks (two Marines to one poncho). During M.C.T you go on three humps with about 100 pounds on your back the distances' are three nine and fifteen miles, not easy. after M.C.T you go to your Military Occupational Speciality school or M.O.S school. Depending on your M.O.S it can be a year or longer. After that you get to your duty station and chances are right when to get there you are getting deployed to some warzone. But before you can deploy you halfto go threw pre deployment training. That is another three weeks of hell, and threw all of this you are doing this thing called M.C.M.A.P Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. So i would say that the Marines are pretty well trained.

Exactly right. I full heartedly agree. US Marines are some of the best trained soliders in the WORLD and I personally felt more comfortable on Marine Convoys than Army or other types. Not to take away anything from the Army, it is just a different mindset for marines. Army thinks "Combat Logistic Patrol" Marines think "Drive down road, kill anything that gets in our way."

But again...no one has taken ANYTHING away from the US military or said anything negative about them. It sure is a good thing that the US and ROK will never be at war, so we won't have to find out.

But you should realize that while your training was great and very difficult....so is the ROK training. I know many US Marines and I know many ROK Marines and I would trust either to defend a beach....oh wait...I have. The ROK Defends Kunsan's beach from threats that I really can't talk about here and they do an EXCELLENT job....and they have had around 40 years to do it and get good at it.

You're right, US Marines took many Japanese beaches.....and you're right, they did it through numbers and superior training....and a great deal of death on both sides. Again, its a good thing that we will never have to fight the ROK and its a good thing that we have some incredible soldiers on both the US side and the ROK side to help if we ever again go north of the 38th Parallel. But again....this was simply a military demonstration....nothing more. I assure you that the ROK military is very well trained and when it comes to hand to hand combat, will do what needs to be done to win....which probably doesn't include jumping spin kicks.

 

[MBuzzy]

a jump spin kick wont hurt when you are wearing body armor tust me we have tested it.

Probably not, but it would shock the heck out of you, wouldn't it?

 

[exile]

If someone told you that you had three months to fortify a beach and you had unlimited resources how strong could you make that beach? Tojo in WWII pretty much said that to his Generals, and yet the Army/Marines took the pacific where almost every beach they had to storm was like that. Sounds like you gotta be pretty well trained to do that.

Yet, when I mentioned the record of the South Korean commando and Marine units in the more recent Korean War and much more recent Vietnam War, you told me in effect that those were too long ago to be relevant to the discussion.

The point that MBuzzy brought up is paramount: for the Koreans, the Korean War isn't over. Legally, it is still going on: there was never a formal cessation of hostilities. And those Koreans in the video are the ones who are going to be carrying the total brunt of any land war on the peninsula at this point. To me, it makes sense that the skills they're demoing here reflect the training for the kind of combat that they'll be pitchforked into if it ever comes to that. Which is why the particular skills that are reflected there—in particular, the ability move in a very agile fashion through fairly extreme motion and then strike a series of targets effectively seem so impressive: that kind of close-range ability to damage multiple targets is one that it makes a lot of sense for a greatly outnumbered military force preparing for a probably very close-range land war to develop and excel at.

 

[hwarang_do_adam]

Im not sure but im pretty sure that the U.S has men at the 38th parallel right now. So it won't just be the ROK that need to fight for their lifes.

 

[hwarang_do_adam]

Probably not, but it would shock the heck out of you, wouldn't it?

it will put you on your butt. lol

 

[MBuzzy]

Im not sure but im pretty sure that the U.S has men at the 38th parallel right now. So it won't just be the ROK that need to fight for their lifes.

Exactly, and all over the penninsula....which is why we have learned to trust and work with the ROK Military closely.

 

[newGuy12]

Look -- I want to explain something so that I don't end up looking like a complete idiot to everyone on the board. This is important to me: In no way did I wish to put down the US Marines. No way.

I have read a book about Iwo Jima. I need no other proof to know about the US Marines. I have some friends who are Marines now. One is out, the other one is over in Iraq, again (4th freaking tour). Both of these guys don't go about bragging and all, but they are freaking tough guys. Period.

I'm not saying that a ROK guy would just come up and beat down a Marine. I'm not delusional. That's not what I meant. Its regrettable that it seems to have come out that way, its just me being lame at typing this stuff out. I just wished to impress upon others here that those ROK guys are also the real deal, TODAY, no joke. I met one one time here in the States. I know what I'm talking about.

And, yes, everyone is quick to say that these jump spinning kicks are foolish, but, I have to tell everyone, these guys are world class at TKD, I've seen a ROK guy kick, and furthermore, I can say that the jump spinning side kick is very powerful, no joke. It seems that everyone will dismiss it as foolish, but it will flat out end a fight, I'm telling you, if it lands, the opponent will have a shock, a big energy transfer!

Now, as far as warfare, like the combat, again, I cannot say anything about that. I know nothing of that. But, please, please, everyone, know that I hold all soldiers in great regard. They have my UTMOST respect -- especially the "elite" ones that I know of -- such as the US MARINES, the US Army Rangers, and the Regiment -- the British SAS. I have nothing but respect for all of these people. I have read a little about their training, and it is quite impressive.

As far as I am concerned, anyone who can stick it out through the Marine's Boot Camp has conquered the quest of a lifetime, period.




Thank you for your service to our country!




Robert Witten

 

[terryl965]

Look -- I want to explain something so that I don't end up looking like a complete idiot to everyone on the board. This is important to me: In no way did I wish to put down the US Marines. No way. I have read a book about Iwo Jima. I need no other proof to know about the US Marines. I have some friends who are Marines now. One is out, the other one is over in Iraq, again (4th freaking tour). Both of these guys don't go about bragging and all, but they are freaking tough guys. Period. I'm not saying that a ROK guy would just come up and beat down a Marine. I'm not delusional. That's not what I meant. Its regrettable that it seems to have come out that way, its just me being lame at typing this stuff out. I just wished to impress upon others here that those ROK guys are also the real deal, TODAY, no joke. I met one one time here in the States. I know what I'm talking about. And, yes, everyone is quick to say that these jump spinning kicks are foolish, but, I have to tell everyone, these guys are world class at TKD, I've seen a ROK guy kick, and furthermore, I can say that the jump spinning side kick is very powerful, no joke. It seems that everyone will dismiss it as foolish, but it will flat out end a fight, I'm telling you, if it lands, the opponent will go down. Now, as far as warfare, like the combat, again, I cannot say anything about that. I know nothing of that. But, please, please, everyone, know that I hold all soldiers in great regard. They have my UTMOST respect -- especially the "elite" ones that I know of -- such as the US MARINES, the US Army Rangers, and the Regiment -- the British SAS. I have nothing but respect for all of these people. I have read a little about their training, and it is quite impressive. As far as I am concerned, anyone who can stick it out through the Marine's Boot Camp has conquered the quest of a lifetime, period. Thank you for your service to our country! Robert Witten

NewGuy I'm sure you never said anything bad towards our military, you have always been on the same side as us. Have not seen you much in the LPT