Knife from WW3 Combative's

Discussion in 'Weapon Videos' started by WW3 Combatives, Jul 20, 2016.

  1. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Depends. You can hold in the icepick grip if you have a straight (preferably single edged) blade that you also want to use for control, as an example trapping a wrist between your forearm and the back edge of the blade. If you have a karambit, which traditionally has an edge on both sides that kind of control can be pretty devastating. Also with a karambit a thrust can very much look like a punch due to the curvature of the blade as well.
     
  2. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    When I do pikal(reverse grip), I learned it edge in. This makes the hooking/trapping devastating as you say. Because of the hooked blade on a karambit, a punch is a very different thing than the same punch with a straight blade. It is part of what a karambit is designed to do, it is not what a regular knife is used for.
     
  3. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Oh in Kali we learn edge out for a couple reasons.

    1. If you use it to attack an offending arm you can do it, in a punching fashion for a deeper cut.
    3. If you use it to block, the chances of the blade coming back to haunt you are a lot lower.

    To quote one knife maker I am familiar with the difference between the two pikal grips...

    "Having the cutting edge facing inward puts the movement of the knife blade toward the knife user. Cutting toward oneself with a 7" long bladed knife is never a good idea. The motion of thrusting is downward and inward, pulling the enemy closer into the knife user's body. If the knife user is trapped or a strike lands on the knife, it can be injurious to the knife owner."

    I would also completely disagree with the last part. A traditional knife doesn't have the ergonomics that make a knife innately ill suited for either grip. The trick is having the right grip for the techniques you plan on using. In terms of the karambit I am actually on the same page as Doug Marcaida as well. It's not the blade shape that makes the karambit so dang dangerous, it's the ring. For the ring to be properly used, even on the Fox DART (which I love) that Marcaida specifically designed to have a single edged straight blade, you have to hold the weapon in a reverse grip.

    You do loose some range and some angles of attack become less effective, to the point of arguably being ineffective, (I primarily practice the 'normal' grip. I said "normal" because I use three different variations depending on what I am doing, primarily saber but also sometimes "hammer" and what some call the "filipino" grip, depending on the type of knife) but there are some advantages that, depending on the circumstances, make the grip more preferable.
    1. it makes the "feel the knife before you see it" concept easier as the blade can be concealed behind the forearm.
    2. you have the advantage of the control/trapping
    3. the "effective" angles of attack are, imo, more powerful as your hand and arm completely support the weapon as your fist is in the optimal biomechanical position for punching due to the alignment. A hammer fist becomes a thrust, a cross or upper cut a slash etc.
    4. The cutting surfaces are always towards your opponent, even if guarding with the forearm.
    5. The natural stance with this is with the arms drawn more in, so it is more "defensive" in that the arm is not as extended which can lead it to being more easily trapped/injured. Because of this I will actually, when doing "knife" v "stick" sparring keep the trainer in the reverse grip. He already has a reach advantage that a couple extra inches won't help over come and a saber grip (at least imo) invites the guy to wack at my arm to try and disarm/break it.

    These "effective" angles though are, as I said more limited, but it still has it's place. So long as you are properly trained in it's use it is viable. I know some custom knife makers who started making knives for their clients in the Special Operations that were asked specifically to address the reverse, blade out, grip in the knives they ordered, since now ergonomic grips are far more common.
     
  4. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

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    In the Pekiti Tirsia Kali Global Organization, we do blade edge in if we are doing Pikal with a single edge knife. Ideally, one would have a double edged knife, but that is actually not legal in many states, even Texas unfortunately.

    Slashes with the knife are good, but with the short weapon, they are not going to be deep enough many times to actually end the fight. There are all sorts of pictures out there of people who have been slashed to heck and ended up surviving. Of course if one slashes the right place, they can bleed out, but those places are limited and bleeding out takes time also. Therefore, we think of the knife as a thrusting weapon primarily, as the thrust is a fight-ender if put int he right place. That's not to say that we don't slash at all, because we do, particularly if we have the opportunity to take the hand so that the other guy might drop his weapon, or when we are transition from one target to another. But I think it is safe to say that, at least in my PTK organization, we focus more on the thrust for the purpose of ending the fight.

    The Karambit is cool, but I have serious concerns about the perception of it as a weapon should would be carrying it and, God forbid, be forced to used it for the purposes of self-protection. My Spyderco folder is a pretty normal knife as far as EDC blades go. A Karambit is probably going to be looked at far differently by most LEO's and almost certainly by prosecutors. That being said, it is fun to train.
     
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  5. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Hmmm, different weapons dictate different tactics. If the ring is what makes the karambit so effective, you could achieve the same slashing/ripping damage with a bird and trout knife. A hawkbill carpet knife could substitute as a karambit more effectively, and has no ring.
    I learned pikal grip(edge in) from a direct student of Doug Marcaida and a noted knife designer, Craig Douglas aka SouthNarc. It is a standard grip taught in Pekiti Tirsia. It is advocated for smaller blades.
     
  6. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    I do Lacoste-Inosanto Kali and my Guro/Sifu is also a private contractor instructor in combatives so that may explain the "blade out" issue?

    Agreed on the double edge/legal issue and on the last point. I was actually talking with my Guro the other day about the Karambit. I was saying legally (in our State) I think you would be okay with a single edged karambit like the Fox or Spiderco, they aren't that different than some hunting "gutting" knives, so as a folder you could justify it as a "tool" vs a "Prohibited Offensive Weapon". However a double edged traditional karambit would be a POW in our State so avoid it. Even then, if you use that sort of folder as an EDC, have your explanation prepared because it will "look bad" even if single edged.
     
  7. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    My comment regarding Doug was simply his comment on the ring and it's importance. My Kali training is Lacoste-Inosanto and we all know I think (as we study FMA) how varied FMA really is and L-IK being a hybrid only exacerbates the difference I am sure.
     
  8. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

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    Very possibly. When I did Lacoste-Inosanto, we did blade out much of the time in pikal as well. The same was true when I trained Modern Arnis and also Pekiti Tirsia in a different organization.

    Legally, I think you are correct on the single edged karambit, but my concern is about perception. There are indeed some "gutting knives" that have a curved blade, but I am not seeing LEO's and/or Prosecutors buying that argument. I believe you are creating the impression of looking for trouble if you carry one.

    The fact that we have chosen to train in a blade heavy martial arts system is enough to make people look twice at you if something happens. Thankfully, there are multiple LEO's in Texas who train in PTK, which will help (hopefully) in that perception.

    If I had my way, I would be carrying an Applegate-Fairbairn of some kind. Unfortunately, that is not an option for me.
     
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  9. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    I would agree, hence why I said make sure you have the canned response regarding the purpose of the knife. If you say simply "for defense" that then adds a whole different layer to the headache. In the long run I think you would be good but the drama before then is to be avoided if possible and that difference can often be simple articulation.

    again agreed, my brother in law is a TKD instructor and when we talk about our respective arts he gets my Wing Chun but the Kali? He says "it makes sense for you as a cop. You learn sticks and learning how to use blades means you are better capable to defend against them, but 'normal' people?!?!?"

    As for other LEOs, in my area those few that train on their own tend to have been dedicated to BJJ. Most, sadly, don't train on their own dime.
     
  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hmm, I'm away for a little bit, and this keeps going?

    Okay… I'm a little late to the party, but what the hell, let's look at what we have here… er… settle in, guys… this won't be short…

    "Static strikes"? As in, not showing actual body movement? Yeah, I can see that…

    The issue was not the you were overexageratin movements, it's that the movements were beginner-level to maybe early intermediate, and simply poor. And they were not taken out of context… but we'll get to that.

    Not if the principles are contradictory. And, frankly, if a system is already principle based, adding other principles to it (from external sources) is simply overly complicating, muddying up, and missing the point of the actual system you think you're improving. I mean… if one system has a series of principles for power generation, adding alternate principles for power generation from other systems is completely pointless… you may buy 10 cars, but you can only drive one at a time.

    Oh, but for the record, I have seen nothing at all in anything from you that makes me think you're in any position to add to anything I know…

    Ha!

    The videos give plenty away, trust me…

    No, but I can see glaring issues in body mechanics, I can read marketing double talk (with no real content or genuine information and innovation), and I can recognise poorly understood appreciations of the topics you're attempting to address.

    Then you try to make fun of my training. You have no idea how much time I have spent on my training or what my over all level of skill and understanding is. You're just bashing me and thinking you know me.[/QUOTE]

    You may be surprised at just how much can be told from your clips, mate…

    I wasn't making fun of you, I was pointing out yet another giant red flag of yet another area you claimed to have taken your ideas from… oh, and any further information on that "ninjitsu mind techniques" thing you have mentioned….?

    They're not shown out of context, son. And, if they were, they were your clips, you posted them, and you gave them no further context to explain them… so… that'd be on you.

    Okay, let's deal with this here.

    They are not out of context. The context of the clips is to provide a sample of the teachings that you present with regard to the combative usage of knife… there you go, there's the context. Want more? Sure.

    By your own words here, the context is as follows:
    "The videos above are for effective fighting with a knife. Knife fighting itself has become to flashy and complicated. Holding a knife in your hand either regular grip or ice pick grip and squeezing hard is step one. Then you just need to fight as hard and as effectively as you know how. If you do fancy movements because you think you are cool, you will just lose. Punch, cut, rip, tare and stab. That is real knife fighting, nothing fancy just straight forward and brutal. Nothing nice about a knife in a fight.

    These videos are for combative's which is fighting for your life. There is a difference between combat and a martial art that you train in for self development and discipline. Sure fancy movements are fun to train, but they just won't work for real."

    There you go… your own context, provided by you.

    They were not shown out of context.

    Honestly, that doesn't fill me with any more confidence here…

    Well, first off, that's not a fact, it's an opinion. One that I would posit is highly biased and largely ill-informed.

    It's not a bunch of movements, it's about how to move (which is movement)? Hmm…

    But let's be a little more realistic here… no, it does not teach "how to move the body in the the most effective, powerful, efficient and natural way" (oh, for an Oxford comma…). The snippets of clips alone blow that belief out of the water, as you're not even moving in the most effective, powerful, efficient, or natural way for the actions you're actually showing. And frankly, we don't have to know "why" you're doing what you're doing… we can see what you're doing, and how you're doing it.

    And, again, taking the videos down is not a good sign of your confidence in yourself there…

    While it's good to have a healthy self belief, I wonder what actual basis this one of yours has? And what would happen if it was challenged by someone coming along and pulling apart the myriad issues your methods (and execution) appear to have? I mean, simply from watching the way you move, I would posit that my green belts would go backwards if following your teachings.

    Yellow Bamboo is a real thing. It's still idiocy, of course…

    Er… don't think anyone suggested it was… just that it was another highly dubious name mixed among the other bizarre, red flag waving terms found on your website…

    So it's more a rip off of yoga than of qi gong, then?

    Wonder why...

    Er… when we were children? Hmm…

    So children can lift 3 times their bodyweight? Hmm… Oh, and yeah, it's unheard of. As in, no-one has ever heard of anyone actually being able to do anything close to that. It's only physically possible if you're an ant.

    The Rockies are in Switzerland now? Must ask my family there about that…

    Okay, so it's not ancient, as it's a modern invention with no real basis. It's Swiss only in that it was apparently invented by a Swiss person… but not in any cultural identity itself, from all descriptions here. It's not medical, as there is no medical basis for many of the claims you've made here… and "can cure any physical imbalance" is hardly a definition for "medical". And it's not qi gong, which is a specific Chinese approach to energy development and channeling… which is in no way mentioned or related to anything that Ed apparently invented.

    So Ancient Swiss Medical Qigong, at best, is kinda Swiss… and that's about it.

    Can you see why we may have issues with it?

    What? You use the muscle groups and limbs, as well as the joints the way they're designed to move?!? Wow, you are revolutionary!

    Dude.

    An inaccurate oversimplification, but okay…

    Er… what? As these are methods of response, and not physical actions themselves, I gotta ask… what the hell are you talking about?!?

    Oh boy…

    You do know that, well, pretty much all other non-animal systems may quite violently (and accurately) disagree with you there, yeah? I mean… what's your background in Choy Lay Fut to say that they're not "designed around human movement"? Hsing-i? Bagua? Sure, there are other philosophical constructs, but, in the end, they're based in what the body can do… you're not making it seem like you have much of a grasp of what you're talking about, you know…

    Er… kay… maybe you were just doing things wrong? And if you'd stuck around past beginner level, that would have sorted itself out by actually, you know, training properly in the systems? Just sayin'…

    Sure. But you're kidding yourself if you think it's something impressive to us as well.

    Well done you. Give you another couple of decades, and we'll see what you think of your current abilities then.

    Those green belts took 14 years, did they?

    Ha! Son, you really don't know who you're talking to here, do you? Tony, Elder, myself… never "walked the walk"… you do get that, from our perspective, you haven't even stood up yet, yeah?

    Glad you feel that way. Of course, your considering them "amazing teachers" doesn't automatically make them so… just sayin'…

    Again, having belief in yourself and your system is good… but the proof is in the performance, and honestly, there is little but lack in everything shown from you.

    You're not taking anything away from those who have been doing this far longer than you? That's nice.

    Oh, and by the way, yes, it is that your form is bad, and you don't know what you're talking about. And no, your videos are not seen out of context (frankly, I don't think you know what that even means), as the context is present in the videos themselves… they're samples to give an indication of what you teach. That's the context. Simply, it came up incredibly lacking, and we said so. That's not a lack of context, it's a lack of quality in the material shown.

    Yet you chose to introduce us to your approach by posting two clips of yourself teaching your (very lacking) knife methods, with the title "Knife From WW3 Combatives"… certainly seems like you were putting yourself over as, at the very least, the example of the pinnacle of knife combat understanding in your (personally created) system…

    … but of course, that's not the context, right?

    No. Your knife work was fundamentally flawed, mechanically lacking, and betrayed a complete lack of understanding of the context of knife combat, or the realities of such a topic. It honestly doesn't matter what you think should have come before, the flaws in the clips were completely independent of anything that could have been given.

    Go to my signature for some of my areas. Note here: some.

    And the red flags just keep waving…

    Hi Tony. Look, I'm known for being rather blunt here, so forgive this for being what it is, but…

    No, they would not get automatically respected. I'd hardly call them "giants" in any way, shape, or form, bluntly. Frankly, they come across to me as little more than marketers, with less product to offer than their spiel's indicate. As far as Joe having something "very worthy" in the whole system, personally, I highly doubt that… at least from my perspective and vantage point. We have checked out his sources (such as we have been able to… "ninjitsu" is still a big question mark…), and found many of the wanting. Damien Ross is probably the best pedigree there, and my take on him isn't as glowing as others… although he does have more credibility than the others.

    As far as "none of us are true experts, as we are all immature"… er… who exactly are you thinking you're addressing there? Cause, I gotta say… you may want to watch which direction you're pointing your generalities…

    It'd be interesting, sure.

    Uh… okay… where was the actual review there? I mean… you basically said that you are a coach in one of the source systems, then said what Joe added (which he'd already given a number of times… but I gotta ask, "Dragon Society International Grandmasters"?!? You do realise that that's simply another collection of red flags, yeah?), and say that it's "an innovative thing to do" (actually, no, it's not… cobbling together disparate ideas is not innovative, creating something genuinely new and unique from disparate forms would be, but that's not what Joe has done here)… talk a bit about what you think the issue is (the marketing… uh, no, it's just as much the poor material, flawed ideas, and lacking physical skills), and then defend what you feel is the innovation… but you never, not once, actually review the system, the course, or anything of the kind.

    Here's what a review would likely contain… a breakdown of the course itself… a description of the unique aspects, and how well they come across… pros and cons of the methods… you know, an actual review.

    Er… no. To most of that. Most importantly, no, you don't "inevitably innovate"… and, as mentioned by Frank, pressure point control is kinda diametrically opposed to combatives methodologies… so… huh?
     
  11. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    This definitely. As an example, my Guro/Sifu teaches Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali in the same class. Inosanto Kali includes multiple principles in its empty hand techniques in keeping with the JKD philosophy Guro Dan used to create it. The idea being that at a certain point the practitioner takes from it what works best for them. My Guro/Sifu on the other hand decided to stick with the empty hand maneuvers in Kali that share WC principles, in this way they reinforce each other rather than contradict. Imo this makes learning the next level of techniques far more intuitive as your understanding of the principles becomes deeper.
     

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