Knife Defense Clip

[Garth Barnard]

.....as well as Karl Tanswell, on here before.....

I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.

 

[samurai69]

I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.

Yeh, I would be interested


I saw a den martin clip the other day wher he grabs the knife arm with both hands and locks it into the (safe triangle), then knees the guty shouting "drop the knife".................or similar

I like that first part when there is a frenzied stab attack

similar to

The second or transitory position is referred to as the baseball-bat grip. Basically you grab his wrist with both hands and drive down, locking your arms, and putting you're weight over the knife by leaning forward. This serves to keep him from being able to continue to stab since he now has to lift all your weight in addition to fighting your strength.

I would sooner be hit a couple of times rather than being stabbed once, so i like the idea of stopping/trapping the knife arm

.

 

[MJS]

I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.

Yes, I'd be very interested in hearing a review!

Mike

 

[Garth Barnard]

Cool, I'll report back.

I saw a den martin clip the other day wher he grabs the knife arm with both hands and locks it into the (safe triangle), then knees the guy shouting "drop the knife".................or similar

I studied the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Disarm under Dennis Martin a couple of years ago on Dennis Martin's CQB Hard Skills Program. The G.U.N. Edged Weapon Disarm came from a guy called Gary Klugiewicz. It's a simple and effective way of disarming someone with an edged weapon, which I have included within my Acadamy syllabus. I'm not sure the G.U.N. is the best edged weapon disarm, hence why I'm going to train under Karl Tanswell, but it's the best I've come across to date.

 

[MJS]

Cool, I'll report back.



I studied the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Disarm under Dennis Martin a couple of years ago on Dennis Martin's CQB Hard Skills Program. The G.U.N. Edged Weapon Disarm came from a guy called Gary Klugiewicz. It's a simple and effective way of disarming someone with an edged weapon, which I have included within my Acadamy syllabus. I'm not sure the G.U.N. is the best edged weapon disarm, hence why I'm going to train under Karl Tanswell, but it's the best I've come across to date.

Am I safe to assume that what you're describing is the same as what samurai69 said? Could you expand on this a bit further?

Thanks

 

[KenpoTex]

I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.

please do, I'm ALWAYS interested in new info. and options.

 

[arnisador]

I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.

Yes, definitely! It's good to hear these new ideas.

 

[Garth Barnard]

Am I safe to assume that what you're describing is the same as what samurai69 said? Could you expand on this a bit further?

Hmmm, I could show you the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence in a matter of minutes, but to explain it could be tough. Ok, here goes.....

On seeing an edged weapon the defender shouts loudly, "Knife!", whether it's a knife or not. The 'shout' informs the aggressor that you've seen it and also acts as a warning to all those around you.

**From now on I will describe the G.U.N. defence, defending from a knife**

When the knife is thrust towards you, either as a straight thrust/lunge/stab with a standard grip, or a downwards with a reverse/'ice pick' grip, the knife hand/wirst is grabbed using a 'Butterfly' grip, thumbs over-lapping. (imagine using your hands to produce a shadow of a butterfly on a wall)
The aggressor will have a straight arm, and both of your arms will be straight at this point while you grip the aggressors wrist/lower forearm. A slight side-step may be needed. This part of the defence is the 'G', for Grab.

Next, bring both of your elbows into your mid-section. This is called 'Indexing' or 'to Index'. In this position your arms are bent, elbows into your ribs, forearms extended gripping the aggressors lower forearm/wrist. In doing so you are in a strong position and the aggressor is unable to thrust or pull back for another attempt (hopefully).

Once 'Indexed', and fixed, the aggressor is pummled with knee strikes. On each knee strike the defender shouts "Drop-the-knife". This is done like so.....simultaenously.....

"Drop" - knee strike, "the" - knee strike, "knife" - knee strike, and-so-on-and-so-on, until the aggressor drops the knife. This is the 'U' part, standing for Unarm.

Once the aggressor has dropped the knife, then he/she is 'finished off' with finishing blows until he/she is no longer a threat. This part, the 'N', stands for Neutralise.

As I said, it would be far easier to show than describe.

So, in short.....

G - Grab (Index)
U - Unarm
N - Neutralise

It works very well, but it also has it's limitations, but don't they all?!

 

[samurai69]

Hmmm, I could show you the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence in a matter of minutes, but to explain it could be tough. Ok, here goes.....

On seeing an edged weapon the defender shouts loudly, "Knife!", whether it's a knife or not. The 'shout' informs the aggressor that you've seen it and also acts as a warning to all those around you.

**From now on I will describe the G.U.N. defence, defending from a knife**

When the knife is thrust towards you, either as a straight thrust/lunge/stab with a standard grip, or a downwards with a reverse/'ice pick' grip, the knife hand/wirst is grabbed using a 'Butterfly' grip, thumbs over-lapping. (imagine using your hands to produce a shadow of a butterfly on a wall)
The aggressor will have a straight arm, and both of your arms will be straight at this point while you grip the aggressors wrist/lower forearm. A slight side-step may be needed. This part of the defence is the 'G', for Grab.

Next, bring both of your elbows into your mid-section. This is called 'Indexing' or 'to Index'. In this position your arms are bent, elbows into your ribs, forearms extended gripping the aggressors lower forearm/wrist. In doing so you are in a strong position and the aggressor is unable to thrust or pull back for another attempt (hopefully).

Once 'Indexed', and fixed, the aggressor is pummled with knee strikes. On each knee strike the defender shouts "Drop-the-knife". This is done like so.....simultaenously.....

"Drop" - knee strike, "the" - knee strike, "knife" - knee strike, and-so-on-and-so-on, until the aggressor drops the knife. This is the 'U' part, standing for Unarm.

Once the aggressor has dropped the knife, then he/she is 'finished off' with finishing blows until he/she is no longer a threat. This part, the 'N', stands for Neutralise.

As I said, it would be far easier to show than describe.

So, in short.....

G - Grab (Index)
U - Unarm
N - Neutralise

It works very well, but it also has it's limitations, but don't they all?!

great description..........



.what do you think the limitations of this are.........


After recent events both here and in Uk i am particularly interested in knife defence


.

 

[KenpoTex]

Next, bring both of your elbows into your mid-section. This is called 'Indexing' or 'to Index'. In this position your arms are bent, elbows into your ribs, forearms extended gripping the aggressors lower forearm/wrist. In doing so you are in a strong position and the aggressor is unable to thrust or pull back for another attempt (hopefully).

I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing this part. If your elbows are bent, doesn't that put the blade pretty close to your midsection? Maybe I'm just not "seeing" it correctly. That's one thing I really like about the baseball grip in RedZone, when you're elbows are locked, it's very difficult for the attacker to get you.

 

[samurai69]

I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing this part. If your elbows are bent, doesn't that put the blade pretty close to your midsection? Maybe I'm just not "seeing" it correctly. That's one thing I really like about the baseball grip in RedZone, when you're elbows are locked, it's very difficult for the attacker to get you.

Yeh it does, but unless its a machette, its far enough away and locked in


.

 

[Makalakumu]

Its because of situations like this that I think that unarmed knife defense against a committed attacker is probably a long shot. Especially, if the attacker has any sort of training. My feeling is that attempting to control the weapon arm only keeps you in the danger zone longer. I think that if you can keep the knife off your vitals, do something to create an opening, and escape, you have a much greater chance for survival.

This clip, IMHO, demonstrates that going "toe to toe" with someone with a knife is perhaps the worst thing you can do.

Here is a couple of things that I remind myself, in regards to knife defense, as far as my personal training goes...

Stay healthy. Learn how to run really fast. Strike fast and hard. Get the hell out of there.

 

[bujuts]

IMO, and as others have said on the Kenpo portion of this, is to pretty much attack the attack, while counter attacking with strikes of our own.

Thoughts?

Yup. I say hit the SOB all sorts of hard.

Salute,

Steven Brown

 

[Garth Barnard]

This clip, IMHO, demonstrates that going "toe to toe" with someone with a knife is perhaps the worst thing you can do.

Going toe-to-toe with someone who has a knife is, IMHO, a worse case scenario, but remember, going toe-to-toe with a kife weilding aggressor isn't always your choice.

I've been in 3 edged weapon attacks and luckily escaped without injury with each one, though it was more a case of luck than judgement. It all happens sooooo fast, believe me. And fighting for your life isn't an exact science either! One thing for sure, "Go Foetal = Go fatal!"

I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing this part. If your elbows are bent, doesn't that put the blade pretty close to your midsection? Maybe I'm just not "seeing" it correctly. That's one thing I really like about the baseball grip in RedZone, when you're elbows are locked, it's very difficult for the attacker to get you.

Samurai69 has pretty much nailed it. When the knife is thrust towards your mid-section you thrust your hips back as you grab their wrist. As you index do a slight side-step so that you are 'bladed' at 45 degrees to your opponent. The knife shouldn't be pointing towards your belly-button, but off past your hip, towards a safe area. You need to do this to be able to deliver knee strikes, otherwise you'll pull yourself onto the knife.

I hope all that makes sense.

The weaknesses I've found with the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence are that it's very hard on the thumbs, especially from a downward knife attack with a revers grip. I've dislocated both thumbs doing the G.U.N. Defence when pressure testing it.

Also, I've found that the Butterfly grip has to be modified when up against thick clothing, compared to a sweaty/slippery forearm, for example. The problem with that is, in a 'real go' you only get one chance. You can't ask the attacker to have another go because you got it wrong the first time.

And in low-light, it's difficult to see a flailing wrist/forearm. The Butteryfly Grip is quite a 'specific' type of grip, if you understand what I'm saying.

 

[samurai69]

Going toe-to-toe with someone who has a knife is, IMHO, a worse case scenario, but remember, going toe-to-toe with a kife weilding aggressor isn't always your choice.

I've been in 3 edged weapon attacks and luckily escaped without injury with each one, though it was more a case of luck than judgement. It all happens sooooo fast, believe me. And fighting for your life isn't an exact science either! One thing for sure, "Go Foetal = Go fatal!"

.

Luckily (if you can call it luck) I have only had the threat of/with a knife.....in the past and that was 20+ years ago..............but in the last 4 months i have had the threat of a knife being pulled 2 times (and its not like i am looking for trouble).....there seems to be a growing trend for knife carrying here in portugal too




.

 

[KenpoTex]

Samurai69 has pretty much nailed it. When the knife is thrust towards your mid-section you thrust your hips back as you grab their wrist. As you index do a slight side-step so that you are 'bladed' at 45 degrees to your opponent. The knife shouldn't be pointing towards your belly-button, but off past your hip, towards a safe area. You need to do this to be able to deliver knee strikes, otherwise you'll pull yourself onto the knife.

I hope all that makes sense.

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

 

[arnisador]

One thing for sure, "Go Foetal = Go fatal!"

Well...on the other hand, sometimes the initial attack wounds a person severely enough that survival is the only goal. To take the fetal position is a last resort, when both escape and defense are no longer possible...but people do survive sometimes. The attack is interrupted, the assailant believes his opponent dead, etc. When all else fails, protect the center mass as best as possible. People have survived horrendous attacks.

The weaknesses I've found with the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence are that it's very hard on the thumbs, especially from a downward knife attack with a revers grip. I've dislocated both thumbs doing the G.U.N. Defence when pressure testing it.

I like to use this grip against a dedicated attack--as opposed to the uncommitted defang-the-snake type attacks--and I too have found it hard on the thumbs. Thankfully, no dislocations yet.

 

[MJS]

Hmmm, I could show you the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence in a matter of minutes, but to explain it could be tough. Ok, here goes.....

On seeing an edged weapon the defender shouts loudly, "Knife!", whether it's a knife or not. The 'shout' informs the aggressor that you've seen it and also acts as a warning to all those around you.

**From now on I will describe the G.U.N. defence, defending from a knife**

When the knife is thrust towards you, either as a straight thrust/lunge/stab with a standard grip, or a downwards with a reverse/'ice pick' grip, the knife hand/wirst is grabbed using a 'Butterfly' grip, thumbs over-lapping. (imagine using your hands to produce a shadow of a butterfly on a wall)
The aggressor will have a straight arm, and both of your arms will be straight at this point while you grip the aggressors wrist/lower forearm. A slight side-step may be needed. This part of the defence is the 'G', for Grab.

Next, bring both of your elbows into your mid-section. This is called 'Indexing' or 'to Index'. In this position your arms are bent, elbows into your ribs, forearms extended gripping the aggressors lower forearm/wrist. In doing so you are in a strong position and the aggressor is unable to thrust or pull back for another attempt (hopefully).

Once 'Indexed', and fixed, the aggressor is pummled with knee strikes. On each knee strike the defender shouts "Drop-the-knife". This is done like so.....simultaenously.....

"Drop" - knee strike, "the" - knee strike, "knife" - knee strike, and-so-on-and-so-on, until the aggressor drops the knife. This is the 'U' part, standing for Unarm.

Once the aggressor has dropped the knife, then he/she is 'finished off' with finishing blows until he/she is no longer a threat. This part, the 'N', stands for Neutralise.

As I said, it would be far easier to show than describe.

So, in short.....

G - Grab (Index)
U - Unarm
N - Neutralise

It works very well, but it also has it's limitations, but don't they all?!

Thank you for a well thought out reply! This is certainly something that can be worked in very well with the other defenses that were already mentioned.

Mike

 

[Garth Barnard]

Hi Arnisador,

....To take the fetal position is a last resort, when both escape and defense are no longer possible...but people do survive sometimes.... quote]
I don't dispute that, but I'm not prepared to take the chance of assuming the Feotal position in an Edged Weapon Attack, or any other form of physical attack for that matter, it's just not in me, I'll fight until I'm unconscious or dead.
Now, I'm no expert, but from my own experiences, and from lengthly research into knife attacks, I can say that in the majority of cases where the victim of the attack assumed the Foetal position it did NOT stop the attacker inflicting more wounds.

From experience/research, the Edged Weapon attacker continues the attack after the victim has assumed the Foetal position for two reasons, continued aggression (frenzy) with intent to kill/seriously injure and to prevent the victim from identifing the attacker.

Remember, in most (all) cases the attackers DO NOT want 3 things:

1. To draw attention to the attack
2. To get caught
3. To get hurt

Thankfully, no dislocations yet.

We were going at it pretty hard, but take care all the same.