Kempo/Kenpo techniques

[drop bear]

That’s a demo, not a drill.

It's a demo of a drill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How, exactly, is this any more realistic than any of the videos you critique in this thread? In fact, this seems to be supporting the view point of learn the basics first, then the combinations, then add a partner and resistance.

You use

1. partner drill to "develop" your technique.
2. sparring/wrestling to "test" your technique.
3. solo drill (or form) to "polish" your technique..
4. equipment training to "enhance" your technique.

IMO, 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 should be the right order.

The partner drill is the basic.

 

[drop bear]

That doesn’t seem to be a continuation from the post I responded to.

Ok. To put simply.

It is nothing like pads.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That kick and punch seem to be pretty much on the same height level to me. And what is the purpose of the other arm position, please?

The purpose of the back arm position is to make sure that your punching arm and your chest can make a perfect 180 degree straight line. This can give you the maximum amount of punching distance, the principle of "long" fist (vs. "short" fist that chest and arm may make a 90 degree angle).

The low kick and high punch is more noticeable in this Tan Tui form (same form as the other clip).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But the form doesn't have anyone providing the downward block.

The form can only "polish" your skill after you have "develop" your skill. You cannot "develop" skill through the form.

A MA skill require timing, opportunity, angle, power, and balance. Without a life training partner, timing, opportunity, and angle make no sense. In other words, you can't develop any MA skill without a life training partner.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's not much different from boxing combos on focus mitts. There's no resistance there, and you're consistently delivering several punches in a combination (sometimes with one "counter" that you have to duck).

Again, your training partner can help you to train more than your focus mitts can. My main point is you should not waste your opportunity to have a training partner.

 

[Flying Crane]

The purpose of the back arm position is to make sure that your punching arm and your chest can make a perfect 180 degree straight line. This can give you the maximum amount of punching distance, the principle of "long" fist (vs. "short" fist that chest and arm may make a 90 degree angle).

The low kick and high punch is more noticeable in this Tan Tui form (same form as the other clip).

I don’t really understand this within this context. We do it in Tibetan Crane, but we are rotating the torso and pulling that arm back to augment that rotation. In this, there is no rotation and no pull-back.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don’t really understand this within this context. We do it in Tibetan Crane, but we are rotating the torso and pulling that arm back to augment that rotation. In this, there is no rotation and no pull-back.

It's very basic level training and similar to the Taiji "single whip" training (Taiji came from long fist).

 

[Flying Crane]

It's very basic level training and similar to the Taiji "single whip" training (Taiji came from long fist).

But taiji has torso rotation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I presume you’re referring to the second video. The first is pretty standard Muay Thai pad training.

Yes - I should have been clearer. I was referring to the Kempo video. The MT video was a drill, and the Kempo video was a demo, so I wouldn't expect them to have a lot in common.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's a demo of a drill.

That wasn't what I saw in it. He said he was showing applications. The way I've always heard "application" used, it refers to things that are beyond the drill. Whether we agree wit the usefulness of the application or not, it's not meant to be training a combination the way pad work does. I think their "Techniques" are often meant to train what pad work does, though I personally prefer the pad work (the Techniques seem to be another of those beginning points that gets over-emphasized).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. To put simply.

It is nothing like pads.

The Techniques that teach a combo are a bit like pads in their purpose. It misses some elements that would have to be trained elsewhere (don't get to actually hit, which is probably the strongest thing in favor of pads), but the basic process is the same - you have targets you're practicing combos at. They're closer to focus mitts, because you can't hit focus mitts with the force you can strike MT pads. They'd be closest to the starting point of mitt work, before the mitt-wearer starts moving.

I prefer the pads over the form for most things. The form (since it uses an actual person as the target) can give people a better visualization and understanding of the targets they're attacking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The form can only "polish" your skill after you have "develop" your skill. You cannot "develop" skill through the form.

A MA skill require timing, opportunity, angle, power, and balance. Without a life training partner, timing, opportunity, and angle make no sense. In other words, you can't develop any MA skill without a life training partner.

My point is that you can, in fact, practice the combo without that block. It's there in that form, just as in the Kempo Technique. I agree with you that learning the technique should come before practicing the motion in a form. The use of the Kempo Techniques (forms) doesn't preclude also having a live, reactive (whether resistive or not) training partner during other exercises. The Kempo Technique is just a form.

 

[drop bear]

The Techniques that teach a combo are a bit like pads in their purpose. It misses some elements that would have to be trained elsewhere (don't get to actually hit, which is probably the strongest thing in favor of pads), but the basic process is the same - you have targets you're practicing combos at. They're closer to focus mitts, because you can't hit focus mitts with the force you can strike MT pads. They'd be closest to the starting point of mitt work, before the mitt-wearer starts moving.

I prefer the pads over the form for most things. The form (since it uses an actual person as the target) can give people a better visualization and understanding of the targets they're attacking.

The aim of pads is to represent real time fighting movement as closely as you can. While also isolating certain aspects of that fight.

So if you are magically running rings around a guy in a manner that is unlikely to ever occur.

You are doing it wrong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The aim of pads is to represent real time fighting movement as closely as you can. While also isolating certain aspects of that fight.

So if you are magically running rings around a guy in a manner that is unlikely to ever occur.

You are doing it wrong.

I don't think the intent of the Kempo Technique is to suggest you're going to get several moves to their one move (though some probably think that's what they're learning). It's simply training one possible string of movements from one starting point. I'd like it better if it showed the actual responses that lead to the next movement, rather than having the "attacker" stand still while they complete. My point is just that if you inserted the missing movements that create/allow each next response, it wouldn't materially change the movement of the person doing the Technique. Focus mitts do much the same thing - you don't get to see the reactions that lead from jab to cross to hook, and have to learn those reactions in a different drill.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think the intent of the Kempo Technique is to suggest you're going to get several moves to their one move (though some probably think that's what they're learning). It's simply training one possible string of movements from one starting point. I'd like it better if it showed the actual responses that lead to the next movement, rather than having the "attacker" stand still while they complete. My point is just that if you inserted the missing movements that create/allow each next response, it wouldn't materially change the movement of the person doing the Technique. Focus mitts do much the same thing - you don't get to see the reactions that lead from jab to cross to hook, and have to learn those reactions in a different drill.

No they don't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No they don't.

What don't what?

 

[drop bear]

What don't what?

A three or four punch combination is likey to actually occur.

The Kempo combination is not likely to occur. Because nobody is ever going to let you do that.

 

[Flying Crane]

The form can only "polish" your skill after you have "develop" your skill. You cannot "develop" skill through the form.

Of course you can. It is a form of practice. Practice helps you develop a skill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Of course you can. It is a form of practice. Practice helps you develop a skill.

You may use the term "practice" more general than I do. To me, practice include develop, test, polish, and enhance.

In my school, we start with partner drills (We don't start with solo form or solo drill). After student are familiar with the partner drills, The partner drill without partner then become the solo drill.

In the following clip, his opponent blocks his kick, blocks his punch, ... He does 1 move, his opponent respond with 1 move.

But taiji has torso rotation.

No sure what you are talking about here. Linear move does not need torso rotation, but circular move does. In that form, it's just a linear punch.