Kempo/Kenpo techniques

[Deleted member 39746]

I could go on. But a boxers punches are used to do lots of things. A good counter puncher can get his opponent off balance the way he wants to, the same as a martial artist would need a pull to accomplish.

I would probably add more to that if they dont do sport boxing and go back to its pre civilizing routes. (which frankly i wish was common but hey ho)

 

[drop bear]

They are not intended to be realistic.

They are a drill. They teach you how to flow from technique to technique and help you build speed and smoothness from technique to technique.

They also help you understand what techniques flow good together.

You get realistic training in the form of live sparring.

You can drill realistically if you wanted though. Which should still teach whatever flow you are trying to achieve there.

I am not sure how hitting unrealistic objectives in a drill makes the techniques any more learnable.

 

[drop bear]

The kenpo club techniques aren't made to fight stick fighters they're about idiots swinging a club wildly at your head. Because it's far more likely that'll happen to you than an expert stick fighter attacking you

You are also far more likely to be able to stop an idiot swinging a club if you can stop a competent guy.

They don't negate each other.

 

[drop bear]

It's training muscle memory. We all do this, in every art, style, and approach I've ever seen. Some of the training simply doesn't involve responding to a partner, because we know what comes next. Any time we're training combinations, that's what we're doing. Sometimes we get the other person to provide input, but we still know what the next move is, and aren't actually responding to their movement in the drill. I agree it's preferable if we add in those inputs to give a chance to learn to recognize that pattern of movement coming at us, but think of working focus mitts - there's no real input (fighter blocking, slipping, throwing punches) to learn from there, either. Yet it works quite well.

Realistic expectations. So if your partner doesn't move. Then you need a coach with enough knowledge to jump up and say you will never get away with that.

You can do anything on pads. Doesn't mean you should.

 

[drop bear]

I have no problem with practicing techniques against an unskilled stick/club attack, but this has a glaring problem regardless.

Look at the range. If the defender stood perfectly still and did nothing, the attacker would not actually hit him with the stick. It would be her wrist coming down on his head. Best case scenario, maybe it would be the butt of the stick making contact, but no one, trained or not, uses a stick that way. Having a club gives you range, You don't hold a stick and then step forward with a straight arm hammerfist attack that ignores the entire length of the stick.

I don't know why this practice is so endemic among kenpo schools. I searched YouTube for "kenpo club defense" and 70% of the results had the same thing. In some cases it would actually have been the attackers forearm impacting rather than the weapon. I did eventually find a few examples where it would be the weapon making contact, but even then the point of impact would have been along the 1/3 of the weapon closest to the grip rather than near the end of the club. Even an untrained person can usually figure out that is less than ideal.

In my opinion, understanding distance is one of the most important aspects of fighting skill. Training with drastically incorrect distancing is counterproductive, especially when it's never acknowledged and the participants don't even seem to be aware of it.

Because the drill has to work first and foremost. You get it a lot in styles where the drill working is the ultimate aim of the training.

This mentality means eventually you get an Aikido black belt grading where you are throwing ten guys on their heads at a time.

 

[drop bear]

I would probably add more to that if they dont do sport boxing and go back to its pre civilizing routes. (which frankly i wish was common but hey ho)

Yeah. If only there was a style out there that allowed striking and grappling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are also far more likely to be able to stop an idiot swinging a club if you can stop a competent guy.

They don't negate each other.

It's largely a matter of priorities, I think. I can train to the "deal with an idiot" level without anything close to the investment of time needed to get to the "deal with a competent stick fighter" level. Just like I don't try to train my mount escapes to deal with a BJJ black belt.

 

[CB Jones]

You can drill realistically if you wanted though. Which should still teach whatever flow you are trying to achieve there.

Ok

I am not sure how hitting unrealistic objectives in a drill makes the techniques any more learnable.

They dont make them more learnable....its just a drill that can help teach putting techniques together.

 

[drop bear]

It's largely a matter of priorities, I think. I can train to the "deal with an idiot" level without anything close to the investment of time needed to get to the "deal with a competent stick fighter" level. Just like I don't try to train my mount escapes to deal with a BJJ black belt.

They are the same mount escapes. That is the point.

Techniques that work against gumbies are lumped in to outlying techniques. Fun to know but not core training.

 

[drop bear]

Ok



They dont make them more learnable....its just a drill that can help teach putting techniques together.

So if I get the same benefit from training a realistic scenario and an unrealistic one.

Why?

 

[drop bear]

They are the same mount escapes. That is the point.

Techniques that work against gumbies are lumped in to outlying techniques. Fun to know but not core training.

This is cool. But it isn't core.

 

[CB Jones]

So if I get the same benefit from training a realistic scenario and an unrealistic one.

Why?

We will drill the combination without it being live and without resistance....allowing you to focus on the combo itself. As you get the combo down then you speed up and add resistance and work up to throwing it against live resistance and then in live sparring.

Also with no resistance you can slow down and understand what techniques flow together or what position your body need to be in to throw the combo and defend counters.

Some people just process info different....and seems to help the lower belts understand by slowing it down a little.

 

[dvcochran]

I was always under the probably wrong impression 1/2/3 step sparring is based on the amount of back and forth- 1step sparring, the uke just punches, and then you do your technique. 2step, the uke punches, you respond, the uke kicks, you respond finiahing technique. 3step, uke punches, you vlock and strike, uke attempts to grab you, you break grab and kick, uke blocks kick and kicks back, you block kick and punch. Is that the case, or did i make that all up in my head?

I never thought about it from the attackers side but I would say you are totally correct. Works both ways I suppose.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

We will drill the combination without it being live and without resistance....allowing you to focus on the combo itself. As you get the combo down then you speed up and add resistance and work up to throwing it against live resistance and then in live sparring.

Also with no resistance you can slow down and understand what techniques flow together or what position your body need to be in to throw the combo and defend counters.

Some people just process info different....and seems to help the lower belts understand by slowing it down a little.

Starting a drill with no resistance and working your way up through mild, moderate, and eventually full resistance is fine. I have no problems with that. My objection is starting the drill from an incorrect range that changes crucial details of what makes the techique work.

 

[CB Jones]

Starting a drill with no resistance and working your way up through mild, moderate, and eventually full resistance is fine. I have no problems with that. My objection is starting the drill from an incorrect range that changes crucial details of what makes the techique work.

Agree.

Kung fu wang posted that it was unrealistic to not provide resistance or the drill not being live.

That is what I was referring to when I said the point is it not about being realistic.

 

[drop bear]

Agree.

Kung fu wang posted that it was unrealistic to not provide resistance or the drill not being live.

That is what I was referring to when I said the point is it not about being realistic.

Not really. His issue was that with resistance the drill would collapse.

Either by being somehow so fast he can only get one punch to your five or upward blocking a wrist because the attacker forgot he had a stick in his hand.

See I would have done drills that work with resistance but trained without. Just as a consistency thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kung fu wang posted that it was unrealistic to not provide resistance or the drill not being live.

That is what I was referring to when I said the point is it not about being realistic.

The issue is if your opponent doesn't resist (such as block your punch), you can't borrow his resistance force.

What is "combo" training? IMO, combo training is you make a move, your opponent responds to it, you then respond to his respond.

A good training partner needs to provide his opponent opportunity to train "respond to respond". For example.

- You right punch at your opponent.
- He uses right upward block to block your punch.
- You use left upward block to re-block his upward block (help his upward block to move even higher).
- You then change your right punch into an upward elbow strike to his chest.

In order to train this combo, your opponent's upward block is required. Without it, your right straight punch that change into an upward elbow strike won't make sense.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The following 2 steps training should make sense.

1. A punches B. B blocks it (A trains offense. B trains defense).
2. A punches B. B blocks it. A grabs and pulls B's block arm and punches B with another hand (A trains combo).

If A and B switch sides, both can train

- offense,
- defense,
- combo.

This way, nothing can be missing in training. You can make 5 levels deep if you want to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They are the same mount escapes. That is the point.

Techniques that work against gumbies are lumped in to outlying techniques. Fun to know but not core training.

Some of them are the same mount escapes. Some of the things I can use to upset the structure of someone with little training are easy to learn and easy to try (a good way to feel out their competency), but wouldn't work on a competent ground grappler who has learned to defend against (or make use of) grips, for instance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really. His issue was that with resistance the drill would collapse.

Either by being somehow so fast he can only get one punch to your five or upward blocking a wrist because the attacker forgot he had a stick in his hand.

See I would have done drills that work with resistance but trained without. Just as a consistency thing.

It's not much different from boxing combos on focus mitts. There's no resistance there, and you're consistently delivering several punches in a combination (sometimes with one "counter" that you have to duck).