Kempo/Kenpo techniques

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't need training partner to train pre-defined drills. You can train solo and still get the same benefit such as

- jab, cross combo,
- roundhouse kick, side kick combo,
- side kick, spin back fist combo,
- ...

The benefit of partner training is your opponent can

- escape your attack so you can take advantage on his stepping back (train your chasing footwork).
- block your attack so you can take advantage on his blocking (train your grab, arm wrap, pull, ...).

For example, if your opponent blocks your punch, you can grab his blocking arm, pull his arm, you then punch with your other hand. If your opponent just freezes and doesn't evet block your punch, how can you practice your grab, pull, and ...?

You're right - you don't need one. But there's also no specific harm in having one.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This one is from Tracy Kenpo:

I basically agree.

However, and just talking about Parker style Kenpo here, some people like to critisize its club defences, saying they would not work against an experienced FMA practitioner. However, those folks frequently forget to take the difference between a stick and a club into consideration.

The EPAK* system's 'storm techniques' are designed for club attacks, not for stick attacks, which would require a different approach. The former weapon being heavier and therefore less flexible in application, which means attacks with them tend to require more commitment. Perhaps think of how one would be swinging a baseball bat...

*EPAK = Ed Parker Kenpo

I have no problem with practicing techniques against an unskilled stick/club attack, but this has a glaring problem regardless.

Look at the range. If the defender stood perfectly still and did nothing, the attacker would not actually hit him with the stick. It would be her wrist coming down on his head. Best case scenario, maybe it would be the butt of the stick making contact, but no one, trained or not, uses a stick that way. Having a club gives you range, You don't hold a stick and then step forward with a straight arm hammerfist attack that ignores the entire length of the stick.

I don't know why this practice is so endemic among kenpo schools. I searched YouTube for "kenpo club defense" and 70% of the results had the same thing. In some cases it would actually have been the attackers forearm impacting rather than the weapon. I did eventually find a few examples where it would be the weapon making contact, but even then the point of impact would have been along the 1/3 of the weapon closest to the grip rather than near the end of the club. Even an untrained person can usually figure out that is less than ideal.

In my opinion, understanding distance is one of the most important aspects of fighting skill. Training with drastically incorrect distancing is counterproductive, especially when it's never acknowledged and the participants don't even seem to be aware of it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But a boxer who practices jab-jab-cross-duck-uppercut doesn't need to see that exact combination. He's practicing jab-jab, jab-cross, cross-duck, and duck-uppercut...just putting them all together to work on flow.

For boxer, a punch is just a punch. For non-boxer, a punch can be a punch followed by a grab and pull. if your opponent doesn't block your punch, your grab and pull will not work.

I have many Kempo friends. The block, grab, pull and punch back with another hand do exist in their system.

If you do care about the striking art and wrestling art integration, the grab and pull is a must.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I do 5 moves in response to one from a person, they're just a more interesting heavy bag.

A training partner should function more than a heavy bag.

For example, the following training cannot be done if your opponent just stands there and does nothing.

- You punch.
- I block with one hand and back fist with another hand.
- You block.
- I re-block your block and change my back fist into hook punch.
- You block.
- I re-block your block and ...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have no problem with practicing techniques against an unskilled stick/club attack, but this has a glaring problem regardless.

Look at the range. If the defender stood perfectly still and did nothing, the attacker would not actually hit him with the stick. It would be her wrist coming down on his head. Best case scenario, maybe it would be the butt of the stick making contact, but no one, trained or not, uses a stick that way. Having a club gives you range, You don't hold a stick and then step forward with a straight arm hammerfist attack that ignores the entire length of the stick.

I don't know why this practice is so endemic among kenpo schools. I searched YouTube for "kenpo club defense" and 70% of the results had the same thing. In some cases it would actually have been the attackers forearm impacting rather than the weapon. I did eventually find a few examples where it would be the weapon making contact, but even then the point of impact would have been along the 1/3 of the weapon closest to the grip rather than near the end of the club. Even an untrained person can usually figure out that is less than ideal.

In my opinion, understanding distance is one of the most important aspects of fighting skill. Training with drastically incorrect distancing is counterproductive, especially when it's never acknowledged and the participants don't even seem to be aware of it.

I think this happens a lot in arts training against something they don't teach. I see it with roundhouse punches in NGA schools that don't teach a round punch. I teach round punches (roundhouse, hook, etc.) as part of my curriculum, so students tend to give better punches when they are the "attacker". I teach some stick work, so students tend to give better stick attacks than at schools that don't teach how to use it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For boxer, a punch is just a punch. For non-boxer, a punch can be a punch followed by a grab and pull. if your opponent doesn't block your punch, your grab and pull will not work.

I have many Kempo friends. The block, grab, pull and punch back with another hand do exist in their system.

If you do care about the striking art and wrestling art integration, the grab and pull is a must.

All of that is true. And they have drills that work that combination. My point is that those drills don't mean they can't do something else - it's just a drill like any combination drill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A training partner should function more than a heavy bag.

Why?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All of that is true. And they have drills that work that combination. My point is that those drills don't mean they can't do something else - it's just a drill like any combination drill.

We can only discuss a clip that has been put up in the forum. We can't discuss any clip that we don't see.

Since the Kempo Karate has strong influence from the CMA, the block, grab, pull, and punch back with another hand is in their DNA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why?

I may pay somebody $20 per hour to be my training partner. I don't have to pay a striking dummy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We can only discuss a clip that has been put up in the forum. We can't discuss any clip that we don't see.

Since the Kempo Karate has strong influence from the CMA, the block, grab, pull, and punch back with another hand is in their DNA.

Okay.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I may pay somebody $20 per hour to be my training partner. I don't have to pay a striking dummy.

I've never paid anyone to be my training partner.

Sometimes, all I need is someone I can move around to try things on. BOB isn't great for that, though he can serve if I don't need any movement. The only way I can get real limbs to work with is a training partner. Everyone has some drills where the training partner is mostly passive, so far as I can tell.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've never paid anyone to be my training partner.

Sometimes, all I need is someone I can move around to try things on. BOB isn't great for that, though he can serve if I don't need any movement. The only way I can get real limbs to work with is a training partner. Everyone has some drills where the training partner is mostly passive, so far as I can tell.

Usually if you throw your training partner 100 times, you will let your training partner to throw you 100 times. One day when you are 80 years old and your body just can't afford to be thrown 100 times on the ground, you may have to pay someone in order to continue your training.

When you run your shin bone inside of your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you can sweep his other leg. This will require that your opponent to step back.

A good training partner will provide that opportunity for you (feed you). That's the benefit to have a life training partner than just to have a striking dummy.
.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Usually if you throw your training partner 100 times, you will let your training partner to throw you 100 times. One day when you are 80 years old and your body just can't afford to be thrown 100 times on the ground, you may have to pay someone in order to continue your training.

When you run your shin bone inside of your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you can sweep his other leg. This will require that your opponent to step back.

A good training partner will provide that opportunity for you (feed you). That's the benefit to have a life training partner than just to have a striking dummy.
.

That's what students are for.

Seriously, when I'm 80, I'll probably just be training whatever I can still do, and be more focused on passing along whatever I can to others. I don't really enjoy 1-on-1 training - groups are much more fun - so when I can't take the falls, it's unlikely I'll still be training myself on throws with much frequency.

 

[Buka]

I have no problem with practicing techniques against an unskilled stick/club attack, but this has a glaring problem regardless.

I see what you did there, you rascal.


A "glaring" problem. Well, yeah, it is after all, a technique called "Blocking the Sun".

All kidding aside, your comments on distance are spot on. I wish more schools of striking spent more time teaching the basics and subtleties of distance.

 

[Flying Crane]

View attachment 22260

I see what you did there, you rascal.


A "glaring" problem. Well, yeah, it is after all, a technique called "Blocking the Sun".

All kidding aside, your comments on distance are spot on. I wish more schools of striking spent more time teaching the basics and subtleties of distance.

Yeah, really it does not take much sophistication to recognize how to hit with the tip, and how to swing the stick/club in such a way that the defender would take the block at the tip of the stick, and that would break his arm or wrist and the rest of what he thought he would do is then moot.

 

[Anarax]

I don't know why this practice is so endemic among kenpo schools. I searched YouTube for "kenpo club defense" and 70% of the results had the same thing. In some cases it would actually have been the attackers forearm impacting rather than the weapon. I did eventually find a few examples where it would be the weapon making contact, but even then the point of impact would have been along the 1/3 of the weapon closest to the grip rather than near the end of the club. Even an untrained person can usually figure out that is less than ideal.

One training drill we use in Kali is the defender puts on a stick sparring helmet and the attacker(who knows how to swing a stick) swings at your head will full force with 100% intent. You break in and counter with an unarmed technique. It helps you learn range awareness very quickly.

 

[dvcochran]

But the “self defense techniques” tend to get shortened to just “techniques”.

We do use the term techniques for single movements but use the phrases one, two or three step sparring for something similar to the videos. A misnomer is that none of our step sparring drills (self defense techniques) have only one technique. I am not sure where the name got started.

 

[dvcochran]

Your opponent throws 1 punch. You counter with 5 moves while he is still frozen in his punch. Is this realistic? In the normal situation, if you make 1 move, your opponent will respond with 1 move. When you make your 2nd move, he will respond with your 2nd move.

Unless you are 5 times faster than your opponent, this kind of training is not realistic IMO.

I have a hard time agreeing with this unless your 1st technique effectively takes your opponent out. If however, your 1st technique rocks, gets them off balance, distracted, affects their vision, etc.... then certainly you will have an opportunity to follow your 1st strike before they can react. You see this quite often in boxing and ring fights.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

We do use the term techniques for single movements but use the phrases one, two or three step sparring for something similar to the videos. A misnomer is that none of our step sparring drills (self defense techniques) have only one technique. I am not sure where the name got started.

I was always under the probably wrong impression 1/2/3 step sparring is based on the amount of back and forth- 1step sparring, the uke just punches, and then you do your technique. 2step, the uke punches, you respond, the uke kicks, you respond finiahing technique. 3step, uke punches, you vlock and strike, uke attempts to grab you, you break grab and kick, uke blocks kick and kicks back, you block kick and punch. Is that the case, or did i make that all up in my head?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

unless your 1st technique effectively takes your opponent out.

My Karate friends told me that the karate strategy is "1 punch to kill". We all want to train effective finish moves. Effective knock down skill or effective take down skill is our goal. With this kind of goal in mind, the training will be different.