Kempo / Kenpo Self-defense/Sparring

[Q-Man]

Another thread that I read somewhere around here was talking about sparring in Kempo / Kenpo.
*Disclaimer* It made me wonder about something that I saw as an inconsistency but could easily just be my ignorance.

As I understand Kempo / Kenpo is an art that places a large amount of training time on specific self-defense techniques (ex: cross wrist grab). But when sparring came into that class module or as was more often the case on a seperate class day we did not "spar" the self-defense techniques we were learning so much as we sparred more like a point karate style and sometimes kickboxing.

Could you please explain to me why we did this instead of sparring something more like scenario sparring which I would think would have been more relavant to all the SD techniques we were doing (This was many years ago and for all I know it was just how they had kids and young teens spar).

 

[marlon]

a lot of schools do this type of thing to practice for tournaments. there is kempo sparring which has nothing to do with point sparring and uses much much more of the kempo material. to do point sparring you need to give up at least 70% of your kempo.

respectfully,
marlon

 

[Jdokan]

I agree... Point well made, both why is it done and then Marlon's response...Tournament training is a great way for students to apply certain techniques...I think the tournament kick/punch routines may be the easiest for most students to apply. Once a student reaches a certain level (not neccessarily rank) I also think it is a good idea to train as Marlon indicated...using your defensive techniques applied to sparring.....

 

[Q-Man]

a lot of schools do this type of thing to practice for tournaments. there is kempo sparring which has nothing to do with point sparring and uses much much more of the kempo material. to do point sparring you need to give up at least 70% of your kempo.

respectfully,
marlon

So would you say that if a person did not want to do any tournaments then there would be little to no value in doing that type of sparring and they could just stick with practicing the SD techs and doing scenario sparring? Or is there another benefit for someone not intending on doing tournaments?

 

[Blindside]

So would you say that if a person did not want to do any tournaments then there would be little to no value in doing that type of sparring and they could just stick with practicing the SD techs and doing scenario sparring? Or is there another benefit for someone not intending on doing tournaments?

Yes, there is a huge benefit. If you look at the AK curricullum freestyle techniques are a designated part of the system. These techniques are teaching you the offense. Competitive martial arts (of whatever variety) have you going against a resisting opponent who doesn't want to lose, that can only be a benefit. You learn to read the opponent, when he is going to attack and when he is vulnerable, once you learn that, most "street" attack tends to look pretty dang slow. If you can't hit a guy in sparring with a lead hand vertical punch, what makes you think your SD technique eyeshot is going to magically hit?

Lamont

 

[Q-Man]

Yes, there is a huge benefit. If you look at the AK curricullum freestyle techniques are a designated part of the system. These techniques are teaching you the offense. Competitive martial arts (of whatever variety) have you going against a resisting opponent who doesn't want to lose, that can only be a benefit. You learn to read the opponent, when he is going to attack and when he is vulnerable, once you learn that, most "street" attack tends to look pretty dang slow. If you can't hit a guy in sparring with a lead hand vertical punch, what makes you think your SD technique eyeshot is going to magically hit?

Lamont

The thing is im just not crazy about that type of sparring. I train in mma and have competed a couple of times at the armature level and would prefer to stay with that type of sparring. I was thinking about getting back into Kenpo 1-2x per week and was considering looking to go to a school that focused more on the SD techs and not so much on the point style of sparring. Thanks.

 

[marlon]

Lamont makes good points for point sparring. But if you really do not want to just make it clear before you join. However, i would consider the point sparring thing. i believe that it has benefits but too much of it creates diminishing returns

respectfully,
marlon

 

[Blindside]

The thing is im just not crazy about that type of sparring. I train in mma and have competed a couple of times at the armature level and would prefer to stay with that type of sparring. I was thinking about getting back into Kenpo 1-2x per week and was considering looking to go to a school that focused more on the SD techs and not so much on the point style of sparring. Thanks.

Gotcha, you are fine, I thought you were talking about all sparring. If you do MMA you'll be getting more than what just point will give you. I will say that point sparring emphasizes the first movement, and really makes you work the non-telegraphic part of initial movement, but you should be doing that in MMA even if many do not.

Lamont

 

[DavidCC]

It is possible to ramp up the intensity of the attacks, and to introduce some randmoness in attacks, and still be within the parameters of the techniques. It seems to me the difference between sparring and defending yourself is large. There are some skills that crossover but not as many as many people think... put on the protective gear and get your partner to try to mug you, not spar you.

 

[Blindside]

It is possible to ramp up the intensity of the attacks, and to introduce some randmoness in attacks, and still be within the parameters of the techniques. It seems to me the difference between sparring and defending yourself is large. There are some skills that crossover but not as many as many people think... put on the protective gear and get your partner to try to mug you, not spar you.

Why is someone trying to punch you different if it is sparring or self-defense?

 

[marlon]

Why is someone trying to punch you different if it is sparring or self-defense?

sparring is a sport attitude self defense is defending someone atacking with a clear intention to hurt you badly. it makes a big difference

respectfully,
marlon

 

[Blindside]

So if my training partner is trying to ko me or at least give me a black eye that we can both laugh about, how does this change my response? I know my training partners, I know they like giving noogies as much as I do. I'm not in fear of my life, but the adrenaline should be there.

To flip the phrase; why is this punch, not a punch?

Lamont

 

[marlon]

your trainign partner is trying to knock you out or give you a black eye...your training partner will stop if things go too far, if you are knock out nothing else will happen to you ,your training partner is concerned about how much damage s/he will do to you. think of your groin, back neck, eyes that your training partner will be careful withAll of this changes how an attack is launched and followed, it changes body positioning it is not just an attitude or adreneline thing. when something does not work no one simply smiles and laughs about it your response to someone trying to make you tap out can biomechanically `work`where it would mean little if someone was trying to tear your tendons, rip your ligamnets and break your bones in many places...the speed and intensity and positional aligemnt of such attacks are different...the punch is the last thing to worry about, because it is always just a punch

respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

Why is someone trying to punch you different if it is sparring or self-defense?

because of what comes next

marlon

 

[MJS]

Another thread that I read somewhere around here was talking about sparring in Kempo / Kenpo.
*Disclaimer* It made me wonder about something that I saw as an inconsistency but could easily just be my ignorance.

As I understand Kempo / Kenpo is an art that places a large amount of training time on specific self-defense techniques (ex: cross wrist grab). But when sparring came into that class module or as was more often the case on a seperate class day we did not "spar" the self-defense techniques we were learning so much as we sparred more like a point karate style and sometimes kickboxing.

Could you please explain to me why we did this instead of sparring something more like scenario sparring which I would think would have been more relavant to all the SD techniques we were doing (This was many years ago and for all I know it was just how they had kids and young teens spar).

Even when performing techniques in a real situation, its very possible that you will only pull off a part of the actual tech. The same can be applied for sparring. I can think of a few techs., namely Attacking Mace and Deflecting Hammer, where parts can be applied.

As for the type of sparring, I'd say its going to vary from school to school. Perhaps you can mention this to your instructor.

Mike

 

[Blindside]

your trainign partner is trying to knock you out or give you a black eye...your training partner will stop if things go too far, if you are knock out nothing else will happen to you ,your training partner is concerned about how much damage s/he will do to you. think of your groin, back neck, eyes that your training partner will be careful withAll of this changes how an attack is launched and followed, it changes body positioning it is not just an attitude or adreneline thing. when something does not work no one simply smiles and laughs about it your response to someone trying to make you tap out can biomechanically `work`where it would mean little if someone was trying to tear your tendons, rip your ligamnets and break your bones in many places...the speed and intensity and positional aligemnt of such attacks are different...the punch is the last thing to worry about, because it is always just a punch

respectfully,
marlon

So you feel that "self-defense" training, specifically the various kenpo techniques, takes into account these differences? That the "speed and intensity and positional alignment" of your SD attacks reflects reality better than a full-contact sparring session? I curious where you get your "attackers" and how intense your average SD class is. What kind of padding do you use, what kind of padding does the defender use?

Lamont

 

[marlon]

So you feel that "self-defense" training, specifically the various kenpo techniques, takes into account these differences? That the "speed and intensity and positional alignment" of your SD attacks reflects reality better than a full-contact sparring session? I curious where you get your "attackers" and how intense your average SD class is. What kind of padding do you use, what kind of padding does the defender use?

Lamont

Lamont,
i believe i have stated that there is benefit in point sparring training and full contact sparring training. the comment was made that there seems to be a lagre difference between self defense and sparring. i agree with this, and that is all. i enjoy my training and you seem to enjoy yours. this is good
be well

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

So you feel that "self-defense" training, specifically the various kenpo techniques, takes into account these differences? That the "speed and intensity and positional alignment" of your SD attacks reflects reality better than a full-contact sparring session? I curious where you get your "attackers" and how intense your average SD class is. What kind of padding do you use, what kind of padding does the defender use?

Lamont

Lamont why don't you ask Doc his opinion which i am sure you will respect more than mine. I do not want to argue back and forth on this subject. peace

respectfully,
marlon

 

[kidswarrior]

your trainign partner is trying to knock you out or give you a black eye...your training partner will stop if things go too far, if you are knock out nothing else will happen to you ,your training partner is concerned about how much damage s/he will do to you. think of your groin, back neck, eyes that your training partner will be careful withAll of this changes how an attack is launched and followed, it changes body positioning it is not just an attitude or adreneline thing.

This has always been my problem with sparring--we train in street or combat scenarios, then suddenly convert to sport rules and equipment and have to unlearn all that we've just learned. This is why I teach San Soo practice instead of sparring. Students (and I) use what we would use on the street, but must of course hold the power, which could damage internal organs, muscles, or vital points, and the defender must stop short of actually attacking things that would maim (e.g., eyes, throat). Yet we are practicing what we've learned.

it would mean little if someone was trying to tear your tendons, rip your ligamnets and break your bones in many places...the speed and intensity and positional aligemnt of such attacks are different...the punch is the last thing to worry about, because it is always just a punch

Again, in San Soo practice (which I've integrated into Kempo study, so don't want anyone to feel I'm getting us OT here) the actual 'attack' is not usually going to come as a simple right-hand high swing one step. May be a grab, maybe from behind, maybe multiple attackers, maybe an all out assault of multiple quick, hard strikes. Once the defender responds with the first of his defense, we ask the 'attacker' to let it play out as it would in reality: the defender gets three shots to put away the attacker.

And yes, in case someone is wondering, I did a lot of sparring and cross training before coming to this solution. This does not mean I'm advocating my way for everyone, just that I can't accept some others' call for sparring as all encompassing mandate for me or my students.

 

[DavidCC]

I guess it gets down to how the fight starts, how you are attacked, and what is in the attacker's mind.

In my experience two people who are sparring are probing each other for openings, carefully jabbing and retreating, engaging and disengaging, boxing, maneuvering and generally are as much or more concerned with not getting hit back than they are with successfully attacking you.

In my experience someone trying to mug you fully expects that their initial surprise attack will land and that they will continue to pound on you until you fall down. They are not generally concerned with ranges, angels, or your defense etc. They want to take your head off.

So we each just need to consider which situation we are most likely to need to be ready for, and train appropriately. For our school, we train for the second situation.