Kelly & Paul - An Academic Look

[Dan Anderson]

Now that the furor has died down a bit on the Kelly/Paul issue, it does bring up a interesting couple of points for discussion. To recap without bias, we have a situation where Paul sent Kelly a rough video and got blasted for it. Paul and Kelly post about balintawak empty hands techniques. Paul posts a "difference between Modern Arnis and balintawak" post. Kelly disagrees on a number of items in the post. Kelly, who has never been known to mince words, pulls the senior card on Paul and let's him have it over the net. They go back and forth which culminates in Paul calling him on the hard guy persona and challenging Kelly to a legal match of Kelly's choosing.

Point 1) Kelly has had his way in challenging the credentials and skills of others including inviting them up to his school "any time" to trade sticks, etc. These replies have been anywhere from semi-polite to downright insulting to the recipient. Is this the way for a senior player in any art to act? Pro or con?

Point 2) Paul goes public with the challenge. Should this have been kept private? Pro or con?

Point 3) Who has what to win or lose here (besides the outcome of the match itself)? Is Kelly in a lose/lose situation? He feels Paul is a punk so if he wins, "Did he only whip a punk?" and if he lost, "He got whipped by a punk?" Or is there a win in this in that, "Kelly is 53 years old and is not long in the tooth yet."? Same with Paul - Is he in a win/win situation in that "He was just a punk who got what was coming." or "Whoa! The punk won."

I am putting these out as points for discussion. I have had private discussions about these points. I'm curious how others think on this. Personally, I don't exactly know how a legal match could occur in the first place as waivers can be broken by any good attorney. Also, if we kept Kelly and Paul off this thread (so it doesn't get hot again) it could actually turn out to be a good discussion.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[modarnis]

I am putting these out as points for discussion. I have had private discussions about these points. I'm curious how others think on this. Personally, I don't exactly know how a legal match could occur in the first place as waivers can be broken by any good attorney. Also, if we kept Kelly and Paul off this thread (so it doesn't get hot again) it could actually turn out to be a good discussion.

I would respectfully disagree Dan. Nothing good could come of the discussion. Its their beef, not mine or the Modern Arnis community's

 

[rutherford]

1. If Kelly is the type of person to make challenges, then he shouldn't be surprised to receive one of his own. In my mind, whether its appropriate behavior is entirely in the way the challenge is delivered and the intent behind it.

2. Yes. I think it should have been private.

3. What's to be won or lost is entirely up to the person involved. Your text for this question seems to imply that public opinion is the only thing that matters, when I think it matters least of all in such things.

I'm just pissed that Paul's input is missing from this site. I hope his suspension is brief and that he makes a return when it is done.

Edit - Ok, so I did care.

 

[Bester]

Dunno if thats a good thing. Can't we just book them into a "Hell in the Cell" match at an upcoming WWE PPV?

 

[tshadowchaser]

My thought is that it make th ewhole Mordern Arnis community look bad.

 

[tshadowchaser]

My though tis that it makes the whole Mordern Arnis family look bad

Seniors should not be calling out juniors over the internet. Do it in private and only do it if you know the 2 of you are going to be in the same place at the same time. Nothing is proven by warring with words at 1500 miles

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This is a thread is none of our business and should be closed.

:asian:

 

[Guro Harold]

Mod Hat Off:

I think that this is a private matter between Mr. Worden and Paul as well. I think that we all need to think about adding more content and less controversy to the MA forum.

We know when someone is selling something or having a seminar but there hasn't been as much sharing of content lately.

I think that site has the highest number of MA Datus, several senior students, Guros, and advanced instructors who can set the example and contribute to the learning experience of us all.

-Harold

 

[Tgace]

Its far from being a "private matter" now isnt it?

 

[Guro Harold]

Its far from being a "private matter" now isnt it?

Here's a philosophy that I thought of in this matter...
"Only a fool meddles in matters not his own."

 

[Tgace]

What about the issue of airing it all in a public forum in the first place?

 

[Datu Kelly S. Worden]

Oh my god, Dan Anderson,,, you are quite the little pin pusher aren't you?

I am curious as to why you did not take this subject over to your forum,,,? OH that is correct, no one goes there,,, no one replies to your posts about your books, actually no one really replies to anything you got to say unless you are trying to stir up crap,,, Nice little push for a more political outcry,,, what ever is between Paul and I should be our business, surely not your's,,, I was asked to review a video, no matter how shabby,, sent to American Soldiers I consider friends across the board weather they are direct students or not,,, when a Special Forces Solders viewed this video and said "This stuff will get someone killed" I replied correctly as to what was presented on the video,, I teach Soldiers professionally, do you Dan? I consider it a very important task and I am challenged everyday to provide only the best I can, not some shabby attempt at a band -aid,,

You are surely showing your colors Dan Anderson, the same colors that defused any Mondern Arnis movement on the West Coast years ago while you were actively teaching,,, you still cannot promote a decent event in your own state,,, get a grip, quit trying to create more issues,,, and let me set up a comparison of a little fat bald guy who is still trying to live up to some point karate reputation from 30 years ago,,, it's old Dan real old,,, my camp is this weekend,, stop on by, I will clarify the distinction of style for you,,, no challenge, please come and teach some serious world class practitioners for one hour,,, then I'll teach,,, we'll let them be the judge,,, great opportunity to sell a couple books or get laughed off the island,,, got game? need gas money?

A dweeb like Dan has brought me back, but sadly it is another example of lip service and key board pounding from a Has-Been,,, Need a map to the camp?
You are just a waste of time,,, and it looks like my last stop by martialtalk.com,, you have fun Dan,,,,
Datu Kelly Worden

 

[Guro Harold]

What about the issue of airing it all in a public forum in the first place?

We have policies and admins who have and are handling it. Please consider addressing your concerns to Seig if you like.

 

[Tgace]

Im just positing the matter in regards to this thread and the issues brought up by Dan A. Im not personally concerned with the issue as an Admin matter. If this thread remains open I would guess that those questions are "safer" than digging into the the more "personal" issues....

 

[Makalakumu]

I can't see anything good coming from this. However, I do see the possability for serious injury to either party involved. Then what? The injured parties training most likely will end and the MA journey stops.

Further, if injury happens to occur, lawyers will be involved. People will sue for damages because there is so much to lose...on both sides.

The loss to gain ratio is highly out of balance.

The bottom line is that, as a member, I don't want to see this kind of thing in the Martial Talk community or in the Martial Arts community. It makes us look like rediculous monkeys hopping around, swinging sticks, and beating our chests.

The sad thing is that all of the forums that this was splayed out upon are public. Anyone can come and take a look...

upnorthkyosa

ps - there is nothing wrong with a friendly challenge, good sportsmanship, and good competition. However, I read the thread in question and the subsequent thread on another forum. There was nothing "friendly" about this...

 

[Dan Anderson]

Just got of the phone with Tim H. IF this topic is that touchy, then by all means, lock it down and let it die. I have talked to several people and they have brought up some interesting points which I hadn't seen posted and some views which I hadn't taken a look at. But, like I said, if no good communication can come out of it then lock it down.

Kelly's invitation comes far too late for me to change plans to come up. Last year he invited me one day prior to the camp and, in all fairness, it was a pleasant invitation.

Mods - your call.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I guess I'll rack up a record setting number of bad rep points for this one.

 

[Tgace]

This is a touchy subject thats for sure.

 

[Brian Johns]

I would respectfully disagree Dan. Nothing good could come of the discussion. Its their beef, not mine or the Modern Arnis community's

I would have to agree with Modarnis on this point. This is best handled between the two parties in this dispute. I say, let this die and let's move onto other Modern Arnis related topics.

Take care,
Brian Johns
Columbus, Ohio

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Greetings-

I thought I would calm down as hours passed since the post. Unfortunately, time has done nothing but intensified my feelings on this topic. This is not only an embarrassment to Modern Arnis, but also an embarrassment for MT. Dan, this was a blatant attack on Kelly Worden. I think you deserved everything that Kelly said in his response and then some. If you wanted to get people’s opinion, then you should have contacted them directly. This topic was locked on a previous thread and all the dust still has yet to be settled. I can’t tell you how much this pisses me off! This was an unwarranted attack. I don’t know what you hoped to gain by doing this. I will end it here, before I say something that I will regret.

Severely disappointed,

 

[tshadowchaser]

Gentelmen,
please lets everyone take a deep breath and sit back and think how all this looks to those outside of Modern Arnis OR Maybe you don't care.

as for late invatations,etc. why don't those parties involved and those interested in showing thier stuff all agree to meet at the MT summer camp next year. That will be filmed and recorded for everyone on MT to see. It 3/4 of a year away make your plans now