Katana Banning in UK

[Grenadier]

Hmm, eerily similar to our own politicians, who would rather attack inanimate objects instead of going after criminals.

No, we're not looking at how to control criminals... we're talking about banning the AK-47 and semi-automatic guns.

Howard Metzenbaum

"I don't care about crime, I just want to get the guns."

-U.S. Senator. Howard Metzenbaum, 1994

This ban will accomplish nothing at all, except to hassle law-abiding sword owners. Maybe someone in the UK can give us some more info on this matter: are machetes banned as well?

 

[Grenadier]

Ah, found it...

Here's a non-PDF link for those who may have troubles with such files.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/draft/ukdsi_9780110810324_en_1


The only people who can own such blades:

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;

“insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement;

“permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity;

“sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r);

“third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.

and the blades that are prohibited are as follows:

“(r) a sword with a curved blade of 50 centimetres or over in length; and for the purposes of this sub-paragraph, the length of the blade shall be the straight line distance from the top of the handle to the tip of the blade.”.

Interesting... So they won't ban straight swords, such as the ninja-to, the estoc, the broad sword, etc. More politicians falling for the hype?

 

[Andy3012]

Yeah i was thinking about that - i was going to invest in a tai chi sword, the real deal look amazing. Or even a set of hook swords.

I'm glad some of this has been cleared up though, not that it will bother me in a couple of years when i move away from the dump known as England. This is turning out to be quite the discussion.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah i was thinking about that - i was going to invest in a tai chi sword, the real deal look amazing. Or even a set of hook swords.

I'm glad some of this has been cleared up though, not that it will bother me in a couple of years when i move away from the dump known as England. This is turning out to be quite the discussion.

Well you may call it a dump, but actually a lot of us love this country.

 

[tellner]

The law seems just as stupid on a full reading. Not one substantial objection to its idiocy or heavy-handed approach is refuted.

Look at the specifics. You have a defense if you're using it for "historical reenactment" or for "sporting activity".

The British Museum can never hold an auction, and actual sword collectors are still criminals. There's nothing in the language that says "Only those nasty *shudder* cheap tacky swords" which is what Tez assures is is the real intent of the law. Nope. It's anything curved longer than 50cm with some vague words about "Japan" at the end that don't add a word of semantic content.

Bakatari Sekebe the Blond Samurai can still run around with his wall-hanger. That covers "re-enactment".

Martial artists are still screwed. Iai practice is not a "sports activity". Nobody does Kendo competition with sharp blades. It's questionable whether a Krabi Krabong demo with real dhas would qualify. At the very least there's an expensive court battle with the possibility of serious jail time to find out. And the few koryu practitioners are completely outside the law. They aren't doing a sport. They aren't doing SCA live theater.

It's also going to piss off a whole bunch of Sikhs who own swords as a religious tradition. They can't give them to each other. They can't buy or sell them. They can't even make their own. Since most swords from the region are curved and longer than a foot and a half they fall under the ban. Oh, I'm sure someone will make an exception sooner or later. It's just a further indication of the mindless nature of the law.

Tez, you've fallen completely into the same trap that the legislators have. There has been a few - vanishingly small in terms of your burgeoning violent crime rate - attacks with vaguely Japanese replica swords. You assure us that that's all the law was meant to cover. But that isn't the wording of the statute at all.

You use the typical cop tactic of dividing the world into "Us" and "Them" and saying "You're one of Us, so no matter what the law actually says you're cool. It's only Them we're worried about." The argument continues "We have high-quality reproductions and antiques. They have cheap tacky Chinese crap. Move along now. Nothing to see here."

It doesn't wash.

The law still says what we were afraid it would say. Your argument is still vigorous hand-waving that doesn't address the substantive issues. The legislation is still a heavy handed response to a tiny problem. You already have laws that prohibit carrying swords around in public. This is just an extension of the British propensity to ban everything in sight so as to be seen to be doing something.

 

[tellner]

The guidelines given to the Home Office Police are that genuine martial artists will have no problem proving that they are what they say they are, weapons will be carried as carefully they always have been and martial artists are very unlikely to be stopped as suspicious unless of course you do draw attention to yourself lol!

There's nothing to laugh about here. The law still prohibits collectors. It still prohibits non-sporting martial artists. It still covers pretty much everything you can imagine. But don't worry. The Home Office has said that police can simply choose not to harass or arrest people at their discretion.

In other words, the law only applies to anyone the cops decide is the "wrong sort".

Lovely.

I have a colleague who is an avid figherman ( to the point of obsession actually but that's another story!) he carries several quite big very sharp knives in the boot of his car for filletting, gutting etc the things he catches.
Like shotgun owners martial artists keep their weapons secure and don't carry them openly so everyone can see what they are.

When your pocket knife ban was introduced some of the first successful prosecutions were of people who had extremely legitimate reasons to carry them. They were used for work out in public, and there was no reasonable substitute. The Home Office can wink and tap its nose and say "Only the yobs get punished. We all know who they are. Let the ones we like go free." It's still bad law. And bad law which people are allowed to break based on the personal opinion of its minions is even worse law.

And you're still avoiding the point. This isn't about carrying them cased in public or the cheapness vs. high price of the item. It's a blanket ban on manufacture, sale, trade, giving and possession except for two very narrowly defined purposes. Once again you're following the typical cop line. The law comes down hard on Them. We decide who They are. I like you, so you're one of Us. As long as you're one of Us we'll let you ignore the law.

The police are on the lookout for a 'certain' type if you follow what I mean, they will distinguish between them and the martial artists, well I can anyway lol! I can't speak for the customs though they are not so much looking for weapons as ways to tax things!

Worse and worse. Go on and do what you want. For the moment you're not the people we want to put away. But you're still breaking the law, and you could become that 'certain' type at any moment. We could decide to change that type tomorrow. Or I might have had a bad day and decide to take it out on you. So stay on our good side or you could be next. The new law lets us do what we want. We're not the ones taking the risk.

Oh, and our good side could change retroactively next week when someone in a Ministry or Parliament needs to "do something" about "violence" and directs us to start arresting those scofflaws with sharp objects.

Bad law. Bad law enforcement. Bad judgment. Bad results.

 

[Grenadier]

There are many people who own swords (good or bad quality matters not). Some of them like having a decoration on the wall, some are avid collectors of fine merchandise, some of them practice various forms of martial arts, some of them aren't actively practicing martial arts in an official manner, yet probably like to rig up the cutting stand once in a while, and have some fun with tameshigiri, etc.

Out of all the law-abiding sword owners, only a handful of them are going to be exempted from the law. Should a government official who knows nothing about swords (I'm fairly certain that politicians tend to be ignorant about these matters) be in charge of deciding who gets to own swords and who doesn't?

What if someone with the authority to enforce this law, decided that he didn't like a particular lawful sword owner? Even if the owner were a perfectly legitimate, law-abiding fellow, who practiced martial arts that used such as sword, the burden of proof would be on the owner of the sword. This way, people are guilty until proven innocent.

What harm is the avid collector going to do with his sword collection? I don't see avid collectors generally going out and hacking people to death with their shinken, since they tend to be law-abiding folks.

What if someone had a 50 centimeter long, curved sword, that measured 50.001 centimeters with the government's measuring tape? What makes a 50.001 centimeter sword a horrible instrument of crime, compared to a 49.999 centimeter sword? The BATF does this with shotguns in the USA, that anyone whose shotgun barrel measures under 18.0 inches in length, gets in serious trouble, even if their barrel measures 17.999 inches.

I am quite sure, that if you asked a criminal if they are going to be deterred by this new law, that they'll probably chuckle and say "no way." I seriously doubt that such criminals will say "Gosh, now it's illegal for me to commit crimes that are already illegal, using an illegal instrument! I'd better not commit those crimes anymore!"

Tellner is dead right, that this is a very badly written law, and leaves way too much room for abuse by corrupt and / or ignorant officials.

 

[Sukerkin]

Tellner and Grenadier have covered quite well the concerns I have with this poorly draughted legislation.

Irene is right when she says that those of us who use swords for legitimate purposes carry them in a sensible and safe way (mine are all zipped up in purpose made sword bags in the locked boot of my car when I'm going to and coming from training for example).

But, as Tellner hit dead centre, that's not what the law is addressing. It has gone straight to the foundation of the trade in such items.

 

[thardey]

And what about inheritance?

You can't pass these swords along to your children. Who gets them when you die? The Government?


Also, if I'm not mistaken, isn't there a ban in Japan about exporting swords older than a certain date, since they are considered national treasures? I don't know what that date is, but it can't be much before 1954. It sounds like a Catch-22.

in respect of any conduct of his relating to a weapon to which section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies by virtue of paragraph 1(r) to show that the weapon in question was made in Japan before 1954 or was made in Japan at any other time according to traditional methods of forging swords.

You can only import them to Britain if they come from Japan before 1954, or are made in a "traditional" manner in Japan. But you can't export them from Japan if the are made before a certain date (unknown to me) or are made in the most traditional method of folded steel, which is a national treasure.


Also, like Tellner said, what about other curved swords from other countries? Korean swords? Sabers? Scimitars? 50 cm, that's just over a foot and a half!

A traditional "Yankee" saber made in the "traditional" way for a Yankee saber is not particularly impressive, but has great historical significance.

 

[tellner]

There's a guy on the Oregon Coast named Michael Bell. He's been through the complete program and makes swords that can fool Japanese experts and sword polishers. Since he's an honest man he doesn't misrepresent his work, but it's that good.

So his stuff would be illegal. But a stamped out military POS from 1942 would be "significant" and his competitor outside Osaka who isn't nearly as good a smith would get a pass from British Customs.

*sniff*

Yep. Still stinks.

 

[thardey]

There's a guy on the Oregon Coast named Michael Bell. He's been through the complete program and makes swords that can fool Japanese experts and sword polishers. Since he's an honest man he doesn't misrepresent his work, but it's that good.

So his stuff would be illegal. But a stamped out military POS from 1942 would be "significant" and his competitor outside Osaka who isn't nearly as good a smith would get a pass from British Customs.

*sniff*

Yep. Still stinks.

I can see the tag now:
"Made in America, Assembled in Japan"

 

[Tez3]

I stand humbled by an outsiders knowledge of how my countries laws work. You live in a land of gun culture, ours is a knife culture, I don't lecture you on the stupidity or not of your laws I find it incredible that people are lecturing me on the stupidity of my countries laws.
I wil reiterate, if you are a genuine martial artist, historical renactment society member, Scottish sword dancer etc you will not be prosecuted. You can pass on your swords to your children if you wish.Sikhs will keep whatever weapons they have.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/4788881.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7331099.stm

English law is a strange creature, I don't mean British law there's no such thing as each country has different laws. There is 'natural' law in this country which will mean that common sense will prevail and we won't see all the things you guys are predicting. Carrying a sword in public has been illegal for a vey long time but how many martial artists have you seen arrested these past few years? all those battle re enactments with swords have technically been illegal for years as has sword dancing and even soldiers carrying swords on parades.
Tellner, we don't police this country the way America does so please don't give me attitude about the way we do it. It doesn't affect you.

 

[Andy3012]

What if someone had a 50 centimeter long, curved sword, that measured 50.001 centimeters with the government's measuring tape? What makes a 50.001 centimeter sword a horrible instrument of crime, compared to a 49.999 centimeter sword? The BATF does this with shotguns in the USA, that anyone whose shotgun barrel measures under 18.0 inches in length, gets in serious trouble, even if their barrel measures 17.999 inches.

With most things like that they should give up to 5mm worth of "slack". I'm guessing that anything 5mm under is still considered to be a dangerous weapon.

From what i make of that latest bbc article posted by Tez3 that - you can't import cheap immitation crap swords - but you can import "antique" samurai swords that are over 100 years old.

 

[Tez3]

it's fairly obvious that a law banning weapons will not stop people from carrying them if they intend to do harm with them, we need the law so we can bloody well arrest them hopefully before they stab or kill someone! There is a culture in this country, not a new one it goes back a very long time, of carrying knives, razors and craft/hobby knives etc. It's that we are trying to crack down on, it's a hard job but as we are the ones wearing the stab vests it had better be us hadn't it rather than a member of the public who finds one stuck in his chest.

 

[myusername]

I agree with Tez on this issue. At first I got quite annoyed about this proposal until I learned more from this thread who it was really aimed at. It comes down to the application of the law at the end of the day and it just provides another way in which the police can bring charges on the thugs who misuse these weapons. If this law is being applied in the manner that Tez is saying and it is being used to put criminals who use cheap swords to intimidate their victims behind bars for longer then it is a good thing IMHO.

 

[thardey]

I apologize if any of my remarks were insulting to your intelligence.

Your statements about "natural law" are completely foreign to me.

Our law does not include "common sense." Perhaps that goes back to the founding of the government, but the introduction of common sense would mess up our system of checks and balances.

IMHO, Our system is based on the concept that "Power corrupts," therefore we have designed specific checks to that power into our laws, and the enforcement of those laws. Our lawyers are supposed to find and exploit loopholes in the law, so that those loopholes can be found and closed. The police do not have the authority (under law) to determine whether someone is breaking the law or not, that is up to the judges. Of course, the police have authority on whether or not to file a case before the judge, but even that decision is, (or should be) limited.

To that end, the laws are written in a way that clearly spells out the law to the judge, with the police as a witness before the judge. The judge would look at the weapon before him in court and say, "This weapon meets the definition of a banned weapon. The buyer has no permit to authorize an exemption." That's it.

Using the analogy of the gun culture to knife culture, if you see a banned machine gun on display at a fair, or gun show, or parade, or some public situation, they have to have a permit that specifically gives them the rights to possess that weapon.

Take the ban of nunchaku in California, for instance.

CALIFORNIA CODES
PENAL CODE
SECTION 12020-12040




12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable
firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a
firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which
contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or
carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst
trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any
short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any
leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol,
any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge
knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice
handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon
of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy,
sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

(3) The possession of a nunchaku on the premises of a school which
holds a regulatory or business license and teaches the arts of
self-defense.
(4) The manufacture of a nunchaku for sale to, or the sale of a
nunchaku to, a school which holds a regulatory or business license
and teaches the arts of self-defense.

If you possess a nunchaku, and you are not on the premises of a licensed school, you have no defense. Here, if were any less specific than that, we would, and have, had the problems tellner was talking about.

No practicing in your backyard, no carrying them to and from school, no storing them in your own house. It is harsh, (I don't like it.) but at least it's spelled out.

If the California law gave an option to "historical re-enactors" everybody could use that as a defense, and they would be correct under the letter of the law. The moment you are using a historical weapon, you are re-enacting the use of it. What applies to one has to apply to all. It doesn't matter what they look like, what rank you hold, how the weapon is stored, etc. You either have a license as a school, or you don't.

The idea of "natural law" is totally foreign to me, and to our law "culture." Could you please explain more of that to us, and explain the appeals or defense process one could go through if they feel that the "natural law" was unjustly used against them?

Without this crucial bit of understanding, the way the law is written will never make sense to me. In our system, it is either way too arbitrary, or interpreted literally, way too broad.

 

[Andy3012]

yeah, the way it was represented in the media certainly had alot of people fooled. But then i guess the only people who would look further into law are those who actually have a passion for swords for MA or collecting. So i guess that is the main reason why the headlined it in such a way.

 

[tellner]

Well Tez, you really did screw up on this one. And being snarky about how ignorant we are doesn't change that. You presented the law and said "See. It doesn't say what you thought it would." We looked and said "As a matter of fact, it does. And it's even broader than we'd been led to believe. Here's about half a dozen unintended consequences."

Then you said "Well, what the law says doesn't really matter. What matters is that we're going to apply it selectively."

We said "There are some serious problems with that. You end up with a lot of people breaking the law, knowing that they're breaking the law, and at risk of serious prison time if policies change or they suddenly get moved from one category to another. It makes people disrespect the law and operate on the basis of privilege and patronage. That's a bad thing."

Then you said "Well, you're all a bunch of ignorant foreigners from a gun culture. What could you possibly know?"

We may be foreigners. But the law is pretty clearly written. As written it's poorly considered, over-broad and at odds with its publicly stated effect. It won't solve the problem and will put a lot of people who are not problems in harm's way. Saying that you have a secret exhibit which makes it all better doesn't count. We can't judge information that we haven't seen.

You're doing exactly what professors advise law students.

If the facts are against you argue the law.
If the law is against you argue the facts.
If the facts and the law are against you call the other lawyer a schmuck.

I just collected on a small bet with my wife that you would use exactly that pattern.

None of the three is working terribly well. If you could tell use what is in those secret policy documents and give some indication as to whether they would constitute a legal defense it would be worth discussing. Lacking that you haven't made your case and have in fact given more weight to people's doubts including several of your own countrymen.

You don't have to defend that particular law. You just have to enforce it.

 

[Tez3]

Well I'm so pleased I didn't disappoint. Hope you didn't gloat too much.

You don't like our law, fine don't come over here.

I'm sorry I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about secret exhibits.Police officers in this country know the law, they are also given leeway to use their discretion and common sense. It's not a case of one rule for one another for others, if the police officer determines someone he has stopped is carying a knife/sword whatever for legitimate reason he will not charge them, it's a simple as that. If he stops a chef who is carrying knives he is not bound by the law so tightly that he cannot use his common sense, that's what we call natural law. If he stops a chav who is carrying a knife and it's determined that it is illegal use, the chav can be arrested or have the knife confiscated, he may not necessarily be charged.
The law is something that is alive, always evolving and hopefully it is protecting people. The law in this country is enforced using common sense and empathy not by draconian 'stick to the word of the law' at any cost, here we are allowed to use the spirit of the law. the spirit of this law says that we clamp down on the illegal use of weapons while allowing legitimate users freedom to practice, freedom to admire etc their weapons and I promise you that sticking to the spirit of the law will stand up in our courts.
Legislation is seldom perfect therefore we have the courts. Right up to the House of Lords then onto the European courts of Human rights. this is where statute laws are moulded into shape. We are free to argue against any law in this country, we frequently do. the thing about this law is that it hasn't been tested in courst yet, if and when that happens we'll see who is right and who is wrong.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/13/messages/696.html

I found this which may explain why we look at the law differently in this country from America. It may be a matter of phrasing.
In this country we work to the spirit of the law not to the letter of the law.