Kataless Karate Pros & Cons

[chinto]

karate without kata is not karate. It may still be a fighting art, but not karate. Then again people call a lot of systems karate when it is not really karate. Karate without kata is better called freestyle kickboxing. Which there is nothing wrong with, but I just have problem with people calling something karate when it really isn't karate.

I would have to agree, and add that it must have a heavy Okinawan influince as well. after all if it does not have the Okinawan influince from karate how can it be a karate.

 

[chinto]

Yes, I agree that you have to spend a lot of time sparring to develop good fighting skills. Timing,learning to manipulate the opponent, to read their intentions. Kata develops the muscle memory in the techniques. Sparring develops the reflexes and your ability to deal with an actual opponent attacking. You also learn where your weaknesses are. When you make a mistake or lose focus in sparring you feel where you left an opening or misjudged the distance.
Also don't forget your basics. Without strong basics your techniques will be ineffective.

absolutly. the kata teaches a great deal, basics and body machanics and movement. it is up to the karateka to learn to aply them. but if you work hard on understanding and practicing the kata you will find even in sparring when a technique is right it will sometimes just kinda happen. muscle memory and mushin will take over. its really a great feeling when it does happen.

 

[chinto]

The thing that I see a lot at competitions is students and black belts that have weak basics. You see it in their kata,in their technique and their fighting. Then when others see that they make a judgement on the style that that student/or black belt is demonstrating.
This is how the people not in the martial arts get a bad impression of the martial arts (karate,Taekwondo,etc.).
I also think that is where people get their impression that kata is not useful. If they see someone with weak technique in their kata,which means weak basics or in many cases the person has not practiced the kata thoroughly enough. Then kata looks to be not worth the time. Also much of the meanings of the movements in kata are hidden so the average observer sees the movements as unuseful. Just my observation.

Absolutely!! Right on the button!

 

[chinto]

That is an extremely ignorant remark. Most freestylists do not train with kata because it's not believed to have much practical value for real life situations. Not because it's too much work or because they don't have patience, that's just petty slander.
I personally do train with kata, not because I want to but mainly because it's part of our curriculum. There is far to much useless and time consuming rubbish in kata and I believe that if you are taught the correct technique to start with and you practise it over and over again then there is no need for kata. As for the spiritual aspect of kata, I just down right don't believe in it so I won't comment on that.

No I think most of them are training for turmenments and cage type prize fights. that means the intent is to score points and win, not damage and or criple or even kill an attacker who is intent on taking your life. learn to look below the surfice and see what is 'hiden' in the kata. think in terms of what really nasty use or set up for the next movement would be that would result in seriouse injury or set up for that kind of strike, or trap or lock or sweep or throw. then you will begain to understand what they are teaching you from their experiance in the past.
Also please remember that a real fight is a real fight in 1000bc or today. enless we grow a new arm or leg or something, a real fight will be the same always. there is a very limited number of ways to efficently use the human body in combat.

 

[exile]

Originally Posted by Dark
The freestyle karate dojo is was checking out was pretty cool, they teach the core techniques and have dropped kata, in favor of a more scientific view point, they have a pretty nice set up, they also teach the philosophy aspect as well. I was actually surprised they went back to the old, trap-lock-break methods from a block as well.

If by that you mean that they found themselves basicly where the old kata tought you to be? well i would not be suprised at all! Please remember the kata came out of the experiances of the old men who had fought for their lives. What they passed on and others had work for them in similer fights where their lives were at stake is what went into the kata. This includes the principles of movements and techniques and all of the phisical movements that saved their lives when it was for keeps.

No I think most of them are training for turmenments and cage type prize fights. that means the intent is to score points and win, not damage and or criple or even kill an attacker who is intent on taking your life. learn to look below the surfice and see what is 'hiden' in the kata. think in terms of what really nasty use or set up for the next movement would be that would result in seriouse injury or set up for that kind of strike, or trap or lock or sweep or throw. then you will begain to understand what they are teaching you from their experiance in the past.
Also please remember that a real fight is a real fight in 1000bc or today. enless we grow a new arm or leg or something, a real fight will be the same always. there is a very limited number of ways to efficently use the human body in combat.

Full marks for both points, Chinto. Dismissing kata because you can't `read' them seems to me very much like someone who's never learned to read music saying that a musical score has no information because there is no prose there telling you what notes to play. But let's face it, the kind of `ritual' performance approach to forms is very common in MA instruction, and that, plus the fact that kata performances have become tournament competition items, pretty much guarantee that there will be a lot of people who, like Dark, appear to want karate to be applicable to SD, but who are impatient with kata because there doesn't seem to be anything in them which is usable for that purpose—just as it takes a lot of time and careful instruction to learn how to read music, eh?

 

[chinto]

I am starting to really analyze the hell out of the movements that I have been performing, and I've come across(by accident, I think) some of those truly nasty moves...I guess that's why I enjoy kata; not just for the prescribed pattern of the movements, but also because they are kind of a puzzle...You know that another piece fits, but you just have to find it...

absolutly, and some time go though the bunkai slow with some one and pick say 3 or 4 moves, then try and find 3 or even 5 techniques that the movements in the kata teach you. In the old kata there are usualy even more then 5 techniques in each movement of the kata if you look hard. some times its the one who is not doing the kata that will see it first too.
doing it alone and working on small sections also of course you can see things as well. try both.