kata?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Who are these people arguing that too much timing on katas makes you a worse fighter?

If you spend 2 hours training daily, your training result will depend on how you will allocate your training time. The proper fighting skill development involves with:

1. partner drill to develop.
2. sparring/wrestling to test.
3. weight equipment training to enhance.
4. solo drill (or form) to polish.

IMO, 3, 4 may be equal important, but 1, 2 are more important than 3, 4. If you spend too much time in 4, you will spend less time in 1, 2, 3. You have to be able to "develop" your fighting skill first before you can "polish" it.

 

[Th0mas]

My point is simply that if you do Kata and you find it valuable, for ANY reason, knock yourself out. If you think it helps your allergies, fine. I view it as a benign activity, which will certainly not make something worse. And really, "worse" is also subjective and entirely dependent upon what your goals are. Will it make you a better fighter? Maybe or maybe not. But will it make you a worse fighter? No. If your goal is to fight in a cage, you will likely want to train for that activity. Will kata help you succeed in MMA? Maybe not, but it won't make you fail either. Your lack of training for MMA will be the reason you fail, not your training in Kata.

Same as above. You guys seem to be really hung up on your goals and desired or expected outcomes, and you are using a lot of subjective language as a result. What if XMA is the goal? What if speed is valued over precision, or precision is valued over power?

Hi Steve
You seem to be contradicting yourself in the same post?
Anyway, I refer you back to my previous comment.

If your goal it to learn a pretty martial dance then fine, XMA forms may well be something your interested in. But don't pretend they make you an effective fighter.. If you are one, that is inspite of your eligant dancing, not because of it.

And of course it's subjective! It is all about context and personal goals and they are subjective by definition. The point that is being over laboured is that in the past and in a lot of cases nowadays people assume that if they dilligently train in their martial art of choice they will be equally effective no matter the context and that is blatantly not true.

The kata form on its own does not have any intrinsic magical properties, but combined with the right instruction and other very necessary training activities will make you more effective at what it was designed to do.. Which in the majority of older karate kata's is to provide a range of fighting strategies and tactics for improving the outcome of a civilian self protection situation.

 

[Steve]

Hi Steve
You seem to be contradicting yourself in the same post?
Anyway, I refer you back to my previous comment.

If your goal it to learn a pretty martial dance then fine, XMA forms may well be something your interested in. But don't pretend they make you an effective fighter.. If you are one, that is inspite of your eligant dancing, not because of it.

And of course it's subjective! It is all about context and personal goals and they are subjective by definition. The point that is being over laboured is that in the past and in a lot of cases nowadays people assume that if they dilligently train in their martial art of choice they will be equally effective no matter the context and that is blatantly not true.

The kata form on its own does not have any intrinsic magical properties, but combined with the right instruction and other very necessary training activities will make you more effective at what it was designed to do.. Which in the majority of older karate kata's is to provide a range of fighting strategies and tactics for improving the outcome of a civilian self protection situation.

do I? Huh. Why parts do you think are contradictory?

 

[Th0mas]

do I? Huh. Why parts do you think are contradictory?

Hi Steve
Ok I now think you're trolling, but I'll bite anyway.

On the one hand you're saying if you enjoy doing kata and forms and just the enjoyment of doing it is your goal.. Then go for it. Then on the other hand you say Kirk and myself are being too concerned with clearly articulating personal training goals?

Your position is all about personal goals.. I don't see the problem about being very clear about why you do something to ensure you invest your time effectively to achieve whatever it is you want to.

the reason there are so many threads on this forum and many others with titles like "why kata" or "Kata?" is because people in general don't understand the benefit of Kata or why they spend a significant proportion of their limited training time doing it.

It seems to me that the training benefits of kata are not as obvious compared with, say, hitting a heavy bag. It can only be for the benefit of new students to understand why they do the weird dancing stuff in the first place... If subsequently you also get pleasure from the very action of performing forms well.. Then that is an emergent benefit.. Else why not take up Morris dancing?

 

[Steve]

Hi Steve
Ok I now think you're trolling, but I'll bite anyway.

On the one hand you're saying if you enjoy doing kata and forms and just the enjoyment of doing it is your goal.. Then go for it. Then on the other hand you say Kirk and myself are being too concerned with clearly articulating personal training goals?

Your position is all about personal goals.. I don't see the problem about being very clear about why you do something to ensure you invest your time effectively to achieve whatever it is you want to.

the reason there are so many threads on this forum and many others with titles like "why kata" or "Kata?" is because people in general don't understand the benefit of Kata or why they spend a significant proportion of their limited training time doing it.

It seems to me that the training benefits of kata are not as obvious compared with, say, hitting a heavy bag. It can only be for the benefit of new students to understand why they do the weird dancing stuff in the first place... If subsequently you also get pleasure from the very action of performing forms well.. Then that is an emergent benefit.. Else why not take up Morris dancing?

not trolling, but am posting from a phone so forgive me if I don't post novellas.

I don't think I ever specified personal enjoyment ad the only motivation for kata. My point is that this is, unless you are training for a specific, testable application, this is all speculative anyway. But even where application is testable, such as Mma, if you do kata and think it works, then go for it. as I said earlier, it may not overtly help, but I don't think it will hurt.

so when we get into the murky waters of "fighting" skill ir self defense, I think it's all smoke and mirrors. There's no possible way to support any assertions one way or the other. you could literally defend any assertion because the terms are poorly defined, stats are used or ignored opportunistically, and any scientific research is quickly dismissed. So what the heck. if it does no harm, and you think it helps, who am I to say otherwise? I just know whether or not it appeals to me.

moving on, you are now accusing me of trolling yet you are consistently using language to describe philosophies of training which you arbitrarily deem unworthy in derogatory terms. You may not mean it, but that is the impression I get.

if you think my position is contradictory, I believe it's because you're inferring points I'm nit making. I'm not saying that kata will help make you a better fighter. Rather, I'm saying it might and since we can't know for sure, have at it. If you believe otherwise, great. Just understand that your position is subjective.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My position is similar to Steve's. I think there's plenty of evidence that forms are neither necessary nor sufficient by themselves for developing fighting ability. That leaves open the question of whether they are helpful as one aspect of training for fighting skills. There are plenty of guys out there who are better fighters than I am who feel that forms have been useful in helping them develop their abilities. I don't know if they're right, but it would be pretty arrogant of me to tell them they're wrong.

I'm in an interesting place right now in that for the first time in 35 years I am studying an art (Wing Tsun) which includes the practice of solo forms. As far as I can tell, the forms in WT are not really application based. Rather they are like a series of isolation exercises for developing certain structures and ideas which are central to the art. Are the forms the most efficient way of practicing those structures and ideas? I don't know. I'm keeping an open mind and practicing as well as I can. I'll report back in a year or three as to how things are working out. The class only meets once per week, so at least the solo forms give me something to practice in-between lessons.

 

[Flying Crane]

My position is similar to Steve's. I think there's plenty of evidence that forms are neither necessary nor sufficient by themselves for developing fighting ability. That leaves open the question of whether they are helpful as one aspect of training for fighting skills. There are plenty of guys out there who are better fighters than I am who feel that forms have been useful in helping them develop their abilities. I don't know if they're right, but it would be pretty arrogant of me to tell them they're wrong.

I'm in an interesting place right now in that for the first time in 35 years I am studying an art (Wing Tsun) which includes the practice of solo forms. As far as I can tell, the forms in WT are not really application based. Rather they are like a series of isolation exercises for developing certain structures and ideas which are central to the art. Are the forms the most efficient way of practicing those structures and ideas? I don't know. I'm keeping an open mind and practicing as well as I can. I'll report back in a year or three as to how things are working out. The class only meets once per week, so at least the solo forms give me something to practice in-between lessons.

This is a reasonable position to take. And I agree on your view of the wing chun forms. Your description matches my experience with wing chun.

Interestingly, that experience may be what helps me view my White Crane forms in a similar way, even though they probably appear much more like application to a lot of people.

 

[Steve]

Okay, just want to add a couple of additional thoughts.

Hi Steve
If your goal it to learn a pretty martial dance then fine, XMA forms may well be something your interested in. But don't pretend they make you an effective fighter.. If you are one, that is inspite of your eligant dancing, not because of it.

Two issues with your opinions above. First, you're implying that traditional kata isn't pretty and cannot be considered a dance. I think if you want to train traditional kata and consider it to be a pretty dance, have at it. You perceive value in the activity. Go for it.

Second, you're implying that XMA forms, or I infer any form of kata training to which you do not personally subscribe, do not in any way benefit an "effective fighter." I can think of a few direct benefits having to do with athleticism, fitness and coordination. I'm sure there are others.

The point here is that you are voicing unsupported and unsupportable opinions using language that implies that they are irrefutable fact. They are not. They are opinions. If YOU (as in Th0mas) see no value in XMA forms, you probably should avoid learning them. If others see them as beneficial, what actual evidence do you have to the contrary beyond strong language?

And of course it's subjective! It is all about context and personal goals and they are subjective by definition. The point that is being over laboured is that in the past and in a lot of cases nowadays people assume that if they dilligently train in their martial art of choice they will be equally effective no matter the context and that is blatantly not true.

I honestly don't know what you mean here. I think I agree, but truly can't be quite sure. Training for something you will actually end up doing often enough to gauge success is very helpful.

A guy who trains MMA will have a lot of feedback about how successfully he trains. If he wins matches against skilled opponents, he's doing it right. This is true because results are the only measure that matters. The process isn't the measure. If this successful MMA fighter trains traditional Karate, then we know that traditional Karate works in MMA. If he trains White Crane, then we know that White Crane works in MMA. If this guy trains kata, then kata works. We can see it.

When the discussion turns to things like "better fighter," or "self defense" you cannot measure the results. So, we end up debating the process, which, IMO, isn't all that helpful.

The kata form on its own does not have any intrinsic magical properties, but combined with the right instruction and other very necessary training activities will make you more effective at what it was designed to do.. Which in the majority of older karate kata's is to provide a range of fighting strategies and tactics for improving the outcome of a civilian self protection situation.

That's certainly one legitimate perspective among many others.

 

[lklawson]

Okay, just want to add a couple of additional thoughts. Two issues with your opinions above. First, you're implying that traditional kata isn't pretty and cannot be considered a dance. I think if you want to train traditional kata and consider it to be a pretty dance, have at it. You perceive value in the activity. Go for it.

Second, you're implying that XMA forms, or I infer any form of kata training to which you do not personally subscribe, do not in any way benefit an "effective fighter." I can think of a few direct benefits having to do with athleticism, fitness and coordination. I'm sure there are others.

I like it when dancers come to train with me. Besides raw athleticism, they already have a trained in sense of timing, balance, distance, rhythm, a "feel" for their own body, and a willingness to work hard.

I was working with a figure skater the other day. Pretty little slip of a girl but she couldn't quite get a certain footwork step until I related it to something she's done in figure skating thousands of times. Then, wham, she executes it with remarkable skill, really only needing some tweaks to body and hand position.

Send dancers and figure skaters to me all day, every day, and twice on Sunday!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

I like it when dancers come to train with me. Besides raw athleticism, they already have a trained in sense of timing, balance, distance, rhythm, a "feel" for their own body, and a willingness to work hard.

I was working with a figure skater the other day. Pretty little slip of a girl but she couldn't quite get a certain footwork step until I related it to something she's done in figure skating thousands of times. Then, wham, she executes it with remarkable skill, really only needing some tweaks to body and hand position.

Send dancers and figure skaters to me all day, every day, and twice on Sunday!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I find them to be a mixed blessing, actually. Athleticism and body connection advantages, yes. But how it all comes together can be very different, and often problematic.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

forms have been useful in helping them develop their abilities.

You (general YOU) cannot use form to "develop" your skill. You can only use form to "polish" your skill.

A skill require

1. opportunity,
2. timing,
3. angle,
4. power,
5. balance.

You may be able to "polish" 4,5, but you cannot "polish" 1,2,3 simply because when there is no "opponent", there will be no 1,2,3.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My position is similar to Steve's. I think there's plenty of evidence that forms are neither necessary nor sufficient by themselves for developing fighting ability. That leaves open the question of whether they are helpful as one aspect of training for fighting skills. There are plenty of guys out there who are better fighters than I am who feel that forms have been useful in helping them develop their abilities. I don't know if they're right, but it would be pretty arrogant of me to tell them they're wrong.

It's not forms alone that makes you a better fighter. It's how you train when doing the forms that matters. Forms / Kata must always be done with purpose of goal. If my purpose of doing forms isn't on fighting then the forms aren't going to help me to fight because my focus wasn't on fighting.

If my focus of doing forms is only to show that I can be good at a form,then that's all I'll get out of doing the forms. I think people forget that kata/form training isn't a silver bullet and that people have to have purpose of goal and intent when training. I know people who are excellent with forms and horrible with fighting and the only reason is that from the beginning they were never training to be fighters and their focus on doing forms wasn't for the purpose of fighting. I also know a couple of Sifus that could lay a person out and when they train form they are training with the intensity and focus of laying someone out. Then they spar to put their training into application practice, which is what sparring really is, application practice.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You (general YOU) cannot use form to "develop" your skill. You can only use form to "polish" your skill.

A skill require

1. opportunity,
2. timing,
3. angle,
4. power,
5. balance.

You may be able to "polish" 4,5, but you cannot "polish" 1,2,3 simply because when there is no "opponent", there will be no 1,2,3.

6. would be speed.

 

[Th0mas]

Wow, that will teach me not to check back regularly...
To Steve.. Lots of points I need to make, but as you stated earlier - I am not doing them from my phone.. Fingers too large and patience too small

I'll have to wait to get home and sit down in front of the PC I'm afraid.

 

[Steve]

Wow, that will teach me not to check back regularly...
To Steve.. Lots of points I need to make, but as you stated earlier - I am not doing them from my phone.. Fingers too large and patience too small

I'll have to wait to get home and sit down in front of the PC I'm afraid.

okey doke.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How can you perform your kata to a purpose if no one can agree on what that purpose is?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

It doesn't have to be the same purpose for every person, certainly not within every school/style/art. In fact, since some kata are taught with multiple uses for the movements, there may be more than one purpose to choose from at a time, even for a single individual. But there should be _a_ purpose in mind, IMO.

 

[Paul_D]

Sounds like a convenient cop-out.

Not when you understand what kata is for and how it should be used.

 

[Steve]

Not when you understand what kata is for and how it should be used.

I don't think this was intended as humorous, but I really got a kick out of this. We've literally gone back to page one of this thread, full circle, where lklawson said the following, which I completely agree with:

Not to be a jerk, but, once again we see, going by the answers in this thread (and countless others very like it), that there is no one thing or set of things which practitioners agree on as the "purpose" of kata.

I'm not saying that kata is without value, only that if someone tells you "kata is about X and anyone who says different doesn't know what they're talking about" you can be assured that that person has never been exposed to the wider world of practitioners. And you can be certain that, eventually, you will meet with someone who says exactly that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

It could be said that everyone understands kata or no one understands it, because the answers to the question vary considerably, even among people who are purported to know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you train partner drills then

solo drills = partner drill without partner
form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + ...

 

[Hanzou]

Not when you understand what kata is for and how it should be used.

And yet we have styles that lack kata and those styles produce excellent martial artists.

The only way your argument works is if styles that utilize kata are inherently superior to styles that lack kata. However, that isn't the case, so clearly kata are an unnecessary aspect of MA training.