Kata a Penetrating Look and Insight

[elder999]

1976 That's when Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura started Seido Juku (afdter leaving Kyokushin), which indeed has Zen classes as part of the 4th kyu and above belt requirements.

Actually, the linking of Zen with karate dates back to Funakoshi, and is even evinced in the nationalistic alteration of the characters for the name from meaning china hand to empty hand.

And it was definitely a part of the culture of Kyokushin when I was a kid, and before 1976......Shoshin Nagmine (Matsubyashi ryu) also was a zen adept, and incorporated zen training into karate as early as 1966.

FWIW, I think kata is a catalogue of movements and their relationships.

 

[boobishi]

People will argue the value of kata till they are blue in the face. I don't. Most often Kata is maligned because of peoples assumptions about it's lack of efficacy in combat. I would encourage them to consider Maslows hierarchy of needs. The base of Maslow's pyramid is security and safety. Without that being established in a persons life if is very difficult to progress through the natural stages of personal development. Still it is at the bottom. At the top of the pyramid humans aspire to meaning and purpose. It would be foolish and a waste of energy to expend more energy and time than was necessary to meet a need and even more wasteful to continue on focus on a practice that meets a need that is already met.

I think it is safe to say that the compelling reasons to continue the practice of kata and bunkai supersede gaining security based on kata's efficacy. As an art form kata rescues the beauty of combat from the chaos of brutality and war. The value of a system and an art form is multileveled. The practice of an art or system based on combat allow for both the recording, recognition and recovery from the experience of violence that happens to us and also the violence and conflict that originates in us.

Kata can be much more than people generally assume. It is a puzzle. It is a Practice in paradox. It is a forge to strengthen us. It is a mirror that reflects who we really are. It is the the practice of fighting which is the most "Alive". Alive because as Matt Thornton would say it is about his art "It is a powerful form of Yoga". Though Matt would call it a dead practice because of the assumption that there is no resiting opponate. I refer to it as "Alive" because you are facing off against the most deceptive and subtle of opponents, your self. It is a complex physical and mental task that provides challenges for us on many levels as part of a lifelong learning process. It grounds us within a particular martial history and a community of people dedicated to the well being of each others minds, bodies and spirits. It is in fact, “the way one behaves”.

So, if a person is choosing a method of self defense it is essential that the person understand which "self" they are intending to defend. I don't encourage people to practice kata if it holds no interest for them. I also never encourage people to marry or have kids. If it is a compelling idea to them, have at it.

There are people that believe that the practice of kata produces magical results. Thats kind of like thinking the woman you are marrying will always be young and sweet and the kids you pop out will all get scholarships to harvard. Sure...best of luck with that.

In my opinion kata is a beautiful thing and I have great respect for the people that created them and those that attempt to master them. One the other hand if someone's main purpose is personal protection there may be faster and better options. I see kata as part of a balanced diet.

Being a champion fighter(though I have been) isn't a compelling illusion for me. Defending myself from assault? (which I have done) Hmmm... Not so much. Being a vigorous healthly old fart, surrounded by people having a good time, working toward mutual goals does. Now I certainly don't have to do kata to find those things but for today, thats where I find those things, and myself.

 

[exile]

I think it is safe to say that the compelling reasons to continue the practice of kata and bunkai supersede gaining security based on kata's efficacy. As an art form kata rescues the beauty of combat from the chaos of brutality and war.

The techs that kata contain have plenty of violence in them, b. A very straightforward oyo for the first few moves of Taikyoku Shodan uses hikite and an arm pin to force a grabbing attacker's head down, smash a horizontal elbow into the side of his face, continue with the elbow past that impact and then spear with the elbow point downward back into his face, and followup with the fist on the spearing arm coming down hard—the so-called 'down block'—in a hammer fist to the carotid sinus. That hand becomes the gripping hand through muchimi, and a forward transfer of weight and an accompanying punch to the throat with the other fist—or a palm-heel strike into the face—will pretty much bring the attacker to the ground. And after that initial arm pin, all the moves are forced. The only beauty there is the beauty of efficiency. I train this and other bunkai from the hyungs and kata I study, with partners who aren't making things easy at all. The contact is constrained, but if it weren't, the result would be every bit as unpleasant as it sounds. And I teach these kinds of techs to my classes. That's the information that is in the kata. There's no prettifying them, b.—they are instructions on how to destroy an attacker's will to fight by hurting him more than he can take.

Though Matt would call it a dead practice because of the assumption that there is no resiting opponate. I refer to it as "Alive" because you are facing off against the most deceptive and subtle of opponents, your self.

I have to say, I don't see anything at all in the kata about oneself as the opponent. The kata are telling me where to attack weak points on my attacker's body, in a way which keeps him out of the game—always a tempo down, as the chess players say. My own belief, which I've seen some evidence for in Motobu's and other karateka's writings, is that the intention never was endless solo rehearsal of kata—a partner for training the applications was always assumed. People think performing kata is practicing kata; I disagree. Really practicing kata is doing the bunkai, then working the oyo with noncompliant training partners who resist—hard. It's that way in other MAs; for some reason, people have confused the performance of kata with the martial practice of kata, but they're quite different. Once you've learned the kata and have begun to unravel their destructive content, you need to practice the techs you've discovered with a noncompliant partner so that you can implement that destructiveness. Iain Abernethy, Peyton Quinn and Geoff Thompson have written about this indispensible aspect of kata training in detail—IA has a great article here that goes into some detail—and no curriculum which omits it can claim to be getting anything remotely like full SD value from the kata students learn in it.

Kata are manuals for damaging people who are attacking you physically. If you want to make more of them than that, fine—but that's what they were originally created to be. As Motobu himself has indicated in his writings, in the early days, the kata weren't part of a martial art, they were the art. Rohai, Empi and the rest were considered styles unto themselves. They were what Matsumura, Itosu, Kyan and Motobu did to the people they fought with. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

 

[dnovice]

Wassup guys,

I'm going to weigh in on this. From a practical point of view Kata solely a way of transfering and maintaining techniques/moves through time. Now, how these techniques affects a person attitude towards others is based on each individual, and their thoughts on life.

Take me for instance, the mere fact that I can fight, or lol i feel i can fight if you will, makes me avoid fights if i can. I do not see the need to pick on someone not versed in fighting.

This could be in contrast to someone that brawls all the time. He would use the techniques in the kata to further his purpose.

One can't say either one view is right or wrong. Its just a personal interpretation.

cheers.

 

[exile]

Wassup guys,

I'm going to weigh in on this. From a practical point of view Kata solely a way of transfering and maintaining techniques/moves through time. Now, how these techniques affects a person attitude towards others is based on each individual, and their thoughts on life.

Take me for instance, the mere fact that I can fight, or lol i feel i can fight if you will, makes me avoid fights if i can. I do not see the need to pick on someone not versed in fighting.

This could be in contrast to someone that brawls all the time. He would use the techniques in the kata to further his purpose.

I'm sorry, dn, but none of this makes any sense to me.

If kata contain, as they were created to contain, effective combat information, then that would help someone be able to fight—which in your case would make you avoid fights if possible, as you say. And if someone is a brawler, then it would give them new tools to use in brawling. So how you use the information in kata is something that has nothing to do with the kata themselves, right? In which case, it's really irrelevant to the question of what the kata themselves are all about. The kata, on your own story, are strictly neutral about what you do with the information they contain. So where's the relevance in any of this to the kata?

And note that everything you've said is applicable to arts like Krav Maga or Hapkido, which don't use kata to encode that combat knowledge. Some people will use the confidence their fighting skill (which their knowledge of their art gives them) to avoid fights, and some—a small minority in either the kata-based or non-kata-based arts—will use that knowledge in fights they seek out happily. That's true, kata or no kata. So again, what does any of what you've said have to do with kata themselves?

 

[Steve]

People will argue the value of kata till they are blue in the face. I don't. Most often Kata is maligned because of peoples assumptions about it's lack of efficacy in combat.

Boobishi, I completely understand the points you're making. I want to make it clear that I haven't argued against the value of kata. I am specifically addressing the OP and his assertion (or rather, his instructor's assertion) that kata is equivalent to the way animals learn in nature. I disagree with that.

You mention Matt Thornton and aliveness. I want to clarify that kata and alive training are not mutually exclusive. Aliveness revolves around the three I's of Introduction, Isolation and Integration. Alongside these stages are such things as shadow boxing, solo and partner drills and assorted other training techniques. All, including Kata, are legitimate ways to develop rhythm. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.

But, and this is again back to the OP, there is no value in Kata (or shadow boxing or compliant drills) without actual practice under pressure and in context. I've written a few times on my blog about integrity, and for an activity to have integrity, it must teach a real skill. Whether it's learning a musical instrument, a sport or a martial art, the activity must at least deliver some core skill. There is much to be gained from learning to play a musical instrument... a lot of personal fulfillment can be gained for a lifetime from being able to pick up a stringed instrument and make music. But... the fulfillment doesn't come about if you don't ever ACTUALLY learn to play. If you just strum random notes and claim that the cacophony is harmonious, the activity doesn't have integrity.

I'll never forget reading Moby Dick in high school. The teacher said, "What is Moby Dick?" While all of us in the class offered many possible symbolic meanings for the whale, the one thing we all missed was that, in order for the story to work, Moby Dick was at the very least, a whale.

 

[dnovice]

I'm sorry, dn, but none of this makes any sense to me.

reread what i've written. it has no hidden meaning.

If kata contain, as they were created to contain, effective combat information, then that would help someone be able to fight—which in your case would make you avoid fights if possible, as you say.

ok. if you reread what i wrote above. "This could be in contrast to someone that brawls all the time. He would use the techniques in the kata to further his purpose." did i say something different from what you wrote????

And if someone is a brawler, then it would give them new tools to use in brawling.

ok???

So how you use the information in kata is something that has nothing to do with the kata themselves, right?

huuuuuh? did i say anything different. I'm tired of requoting myself.

In which case, it's really irrelevant to the question of what the kata themselves are all about.

transfering techniques is irrelevant?? are you serious???

The kata, on your own story, are strictly neutral about what you do with the information they contain. So where's the relevance in any of this to the kata?

somehow i don't think transfering techniques is of no relevance. Ok. Here. some of you guys say kata is for avoiding fights and some are saying that kata is vicious. What i'm saying, which wasn't hidden in context, is that it depends on the person at hand so that discussion is irrelevant!

And note that everything you've said is applicable to arts like Krav Maga or Hapkido, which don't use kata to encode that combat knowledge.

Ok. Did i or anyone say that there is only one way of transfering techniques. History can be transfered through books or from person to person (krav maga) mouth to mouth. Two ways...

Some people will use the confidence their fighting skill (which their knowledge of their art gives them) to avoid fights, and some—a small minority in either the kata-based or non-kata-based arts—will use that knowledge in fights they seek out happily. That's true, kata or no kata. So again, what does any of what you've said have to do with kata themselves?

That the arguments you are making need not be arguments.;-)

 

[boobishi]

Exile,
At no time did I say that the practice of kata is not about violence and it's effective application. I only said that I do not argue with people that dislike it because they doubt it efficacy. Trying to convince someone of the depth of practicality in them is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It can't be done and it just irritates the pig.

I also do not remember giving any description of how I train but it appears that you have assumed what my approach might be. I'm familiar with the Gentelmen that you mentioned. Iain in particular. We correspond regularly.
You mentioned...

"Once you've learned the kata and have begun to unravel their destructive content, you need to practice the techs you've discovered with a noncompliant partner so that you can implement that destructiveness".

If you interested in what I think about the practical application of karate kata I would encourage you to (if you havent already) download Iain's free online magazine "Jissen". You will find my articles in each issue (with the exception of the first).

You also said...

"Kata are manuals for damaging people who are attacking you physically. If you want to make more of them than that, fine—but that's what they were originally created to be. As Motobu himself has indicated in his writings, in the early days, the kata weren't part of a martial art, they were the art. Rohai, Empi and the rest were considered styles unto themselves. They were what Matsumura, Itosu, Kyan and Motobu did to the people they fought with. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

I notice that you italicised the word "did". If that is true which I believe it is the kata stand not simply as manuals of distruction but a historical record of the development as warrior, fighters and creative problem solvers. They are autobiographies. As with many great books a person can read a passage at 15, 30, 50 and 70. In each period hopefully their understanding and perception will be enriched and broadened by their life experience.

If we go back a few years to when Frenchmen lived in caves we could imagine them out on a hunt. Why? Because after they "did" hunted fought
they came back to the cave. After they finish their meal they look at the mess on the cave floor. The bones, the blood the animal fat soaking into the red dirt and the charcoal in the fire. The two cave men see the same items. One falls asleep by the fire. The other gets an idea. He grabs a piece of charred wood and draws on the wall. Then he mixes clay, water, fat and some blood. He scoops up the mixture and puts it in his mouth. He then picks up a hollow bone raises it to his mouth and blows the pigment onto the wall leaving a record of his experience. It is not only a manual of mammoth destruction.

About myself as the opponant in kata. Speaking only for myself, in any endeavor that one wants to be excellent in I find that at many stages along the way I will be at odds with myself. will I give up? Will I persevere? Will I push through the pain and bordom when no one else is there. So even without anyone there I experience conflict, which is one of the roots of violence.

As I said before I don't have to do kata or even karate to experience that. I could find that in a knitting circle at Border's.

 

[exile]

b., I don't really have anything to dissent from in what you say here. Just a few thoughts...

Exile,
At no time did I say that the practice of kata is not about violence and it's effective application. I only said that I do not argue with people that dislike it because they doubt it efficacy. Trying to convince someone of the depth of practicality in them is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It can't be done and it just irritates the pig.

Oh yes, I've had the same experience, on MT and elsewhere. It's pretty frustrating. But I do think it's worth arguing the point with people who have that view—not to convince them, but to persuade others, who may be more open-minded about the possibility that the kata contain several layers of applications, not just the most simple and obvious.

I also do not remember giving any description of how I train but it appears that you have assumed what my approach might be.

No—I really wasn't assuming anything about your own training methods. My point was that the 'aliveness' of the training isn't a function of the kata so much as the protocol one follows in implementing the knowledge contained in the kata. My comments were directed at the general idea, which seemed to be embodied in Mr. Thornton's views as you quoted them, that the practice of kata reduces to the performance of kata. It's a very common view, unfortunately.

I'm familiar with the Gentelmen that you mentioned. Iain in particular. We correspond regularly.
You mentioned...

"Once you've learned the kata and have begun to unravel their destructive content, you need to practice the techs you've discovered with a noncompliant partner so that you can implement that destructiveness".

If you interested in what I think about the practical application of karate kata I would encourage you to (if you havent already) download Iain's free online magazine "Jissen". You will find my articles in each issue (with the exception of the first).

I've got all the issues... which are your articles, b? Are they the cartoon graphic illustrations of applications from the kata? Those are outstanding. They're not just amusing, but make the body dynamics of the particular sequences extremely clear—more so than all but the very best photos (which are usually the Achilles' heel of books or articles on practical bunkai...)

You also said...

"Kata are manuals for damaging people who are attacking you physically. If you want to make more of them than that, fine—but that's what they were originally created to be. As Motobu himself has indicated in his writings, in the early days, the kata weren't part of a martial art, they were the art. Rohai, Empi and the rest were considered styles unto themselves. They were what Matsumura, Itosu, Kyan and Motobu did to the people they fought with. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

I notice that you italicised the word "did". If that is true which I believe it is the kata stand not simply as manuals of distruction but a historical record of the development as warrior, fighters and creative problem solvers. They are autobiographies. As with many great books a person can read a passage at 15, 30, 50 and 70. In each period hopefully their understanding and perception will be enriched and broadened by their life experience.

Well, this is true, certainly. But in a sense, the applications are the core raison d'être for the forms. They might, as in your cave-painting comparison, also have a biographical and æsthetic dimension as well—but I think that their quality, like that of a good textbook, depends primarily on how effective the techniques they encode are.

About myself as the opponant in kata. Speaking only for myself, in any endeavor that one wants to be excellent in I find that at many stages along the way I will be at odds with myself. will I give up? Will I persevere? Will I push through the pain and bordom when no one else is there. So even without anyone there I experience conflict, which is one of the roots of violence.

As I said before I don't have to do kata or even karate to experience that. I could find that in a knitting circle at Border's.

Yes, exactly—but if conflict about one's own level of dedication and achievement is a universal accompaniment of any serious effort, then what there is about kata, as vs. anything else, that gives them their particular character, has to be something different, something specific to them, and that involves their relevance against an external enemy. I hope what I'm saying is clear—it's just another instance of the idea that you can't explain the particular on the basis of what is true in general. Any activity can be a test of oneself, but kata have the special characteristic of being about an attacker.

In any case, I very much appreciate your post!

 

[exile]

reread what i've written. it has no hidden meaning.



ok. if you reread what i wrote above. "This could be in contrast to someone that brawls all the time. He would use the techniques in the kata to further his purpose." did i say something different from what you wrote????



ok???



huuuuuh? did i say anything different. I'm tired of requoting myself.



transfering techniques is irrelevant?? are you serious???

somehow i don't think transfering techniques is of no relevance. [/I]Ok. Here. some of you guys say kata is for avoiding fights and some are saying that kata is vicious. What i'm saying, which wasn't hidden in context, is that it depends on the person at hand so that discussion is irrelevant!



Ok. Did i or anyone say that there is only one way of transfering techniques. History can be transfered through books or from person to person (krav maga) mouth to mouth. Two ways...


That the arguments you are making need not be arguments.;-)

No, dn, I really don't think you're getting what I'm saying.

I'm not saying that kata are for avoiding fights, or that they're for getting into fights. They are guides to your best moves if you find yourself in a fight. But that kind of guidance isn't exclusive to kata in particular, it's true of the content of any martial art, kata or no kata. What you're saying is something about MAs—they they can be used to give you the confidence to avoid fights, or to get into them—or, probably most realistically, to walk away from them with minimal damage if a fight finds you and you can't avoid it.

But the particular question that the discussion has been pursuing is what kata specifically (as vs. MAs in general) give you. So far as I can see, they do not give any particular attitude, or point of view on violence, or anything to do with peace, or virtue or whatever. They give you information that can help make you more competent in a SD situation. What I didn't understand about your post, and still don't, is how any of the things you said have anything to do with kata in particular, as a specific means of conveying strategic and tactical ideas about fighting. What you were saying seems to have much more to do with knowledge of MAs than with the nature of kata as a specific means of (or format for) encoding that knowledge. That's all, really.

 

[dnovice]

Ok exile. here. I juxtapose your initial argument to Hungfistron. You first.

My own feeling is, kata are nothing more or less than convenient summaries of tactical response sets to different attack initiations—a grab, a shove, an out-of-the-blue haymaker that you have the awareness to see coming. There are four or five subsegments of each kata that are stand-alone technique guides. Each kata has several different relevant bunkai/applications, so the amount of information is quite large.

true. primary benefit.

But unless you pressure test the techniques encoded in the kata with non-compliant training partners simulating street attacks in increasingly realistic ways, your knowledge of what to do will not translate into your ability to do it. It's the realistic-situation training which is what drives the responses into your muscle memory. Doing kata repeatedly, without a partner and without variations in the mode of attack trains you to use the kata knowledge for SD no better than kicking the air repeatedly trains you to use that kick in a life-or-death confrontation to take out an attacker. The kata contain the information—they're like the book on swimming technique. But if you don't actually get in the water and practice swimmming, you'll never be able to translate that knowledge into action.

true. ok so the primary benefit needs to be cultivated. (hungfistron never said otherwise.)

[/quote] If you want to make kata more than that, no harm done, I suppose...[/quote]
whattt? There can be side benefits.

Now for Hungfistron.

The following quote is from my Instructor Sonny King...

Why does Kata exist?


It is my opinion the Kata, though used for combat, has in its curriculum the betterment of the human being, and the shaping of the human being through repetition of movement and the polishing of ones movement.

comparing kata to regular routines in life. ok.

Therefore, it is the repetition of Kata which removes unnecessary movement, produces good metabolic health, and keeps the body in optimum condition.

True, except for the metabolic health part. Exercise is good for good metabolic health. Not all repetitions are exercise.

It is easier to understand Kata if you were to look at all of the Kata that are being performed in nature.

ok.

The hawk which uses the Kata of gliding when flying, as opposed to the hummingbird which uses the rapid flapping of the wings to fly.

ok.

Each organism produces itself through the subjugation of its parts through repetition and practice. As it evolves, it leaves this information of success, and its failures in its genetic makeup. Therefore, the next species in line can benefit from this knowledge, refine its workings, and move on.

(without reading a single book - I might add)

not sure how accurate this is scientifically, but you are saying Kata=way to transfer what is efficient at one point in time.

Take it a step further, and cross the oceans, and in a park, or in a lowland somewhere your same notes for the North American squirrel's behavior would match almost identically to its European relative.

ermmm. don't know if its exactly the same. different things work in different environments. Still, your point is not negated, ie. the transfering of effective techniques, and the benefits of kata/routines.

Human beings were much closer to social healing through ritual during the agricultural periods of our world's history. The industrialization period drew us even further away from mental, physical & spiritual unification, of self and society. The informational period has all but removed our ways of enhancing the quality of life from the scene.

a bit lofty here, man. still thats what you decide you want to get from it.

Regardless of the Kata involved, if it is mastered, it will shine with eloquence. Each and every Kata has this as its gift to you.

true.

In a lifetime, one who has managed two Kata or five Kata will have a wonderfully developed metabolism, as well as, good posture, and an ability to bear the weight correctly.

lol. if thats your only source of exercise. yes.

As a side note, since Kata is a muscle memory skill, it holds up well in warding off attacks from aggressors. If you practice it faithfully, like walking and running etc., it will protect you.

a little realistic practice should help. Although, it contains the tools you need. You just need to work on finding actual application of those tools.


Ok exile, you are saying that kata is solely for helping in dire situations. "They give you information that can help make you more competent in a SD situation."

This is a primary benefit of kata.

Hungfistron is also saying what kata is for, however, he is talking about its secondary benefits, which may or may not have been the makers intentions.

What i'm doing is pointing out that your view the primary benefit of kata, doesn't preclude the hungfistrons views the secondary benefits. (which he may or may not consider to be HIS primary views. ) In short its subjective.

In other words you are both right. No one is wrong. And in my opinion just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[Tez3]

Ok exile. here. I juxtapose your initial argument to Hungfistron. You first.

true. primary benefit.


true. ok so the primary benefit needs to be cultivated. (hungfistron never said otherwise.)

If you want to make kata more than that, no harm done, I suppose...[/quote]
whattt? There can be side benefits.

Now for Hungfistron.



comparing kata to regular routines in life. ok.


True, except for the metabolic health part. Exercise is good for good metabolic health. Not all repetitions are exercise.




ok.




ok.






not sure how accurate this is scientifically, but you are saying Kata=way to transfer what is efficient at one point in time.



ermmm. don't know if its exactly the same. different things work in different environments. Still, your point is not negated, ie. the transfering of effective techniques, and the benefits of kata/routines.




a bit lofty here, man. still thats what you decide you want to get from it.



true.


lol. if thats your only source of exercise. yes.



a little realistic practice should help. Although, it contains the tools you need. You just need to work on finding actual application of those tools.


Ok exile, you are saying that kata is solely for helping in dire situations. "They give you information that can help make you more competent in a SD situation."

This is a primary benefit of kata.

Hungfistron is also saying what kata is for, however, he is talking about its secondary benefits, which may or may not have been the makers intentions.

What i'm doing is pointing out that your view the primary benefit of kata, doesn't preclude the hungfistrons views the secondary benefits. (which he may or may not consider to be HIS primary views. ) In short its subjective.

In other words you are both right. No one is wrong. And in my opinion just arguing for the sake of arguing. [/quote]



Did you think we couldn't understand any of the arguments in this discussion then?

 

[exile]

In other words you are both right. No one is wrong. And in my opinion just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Any discussion in which people disagree about specifics can be tarred with that brush, dn—it's an easy accusation to make. But what I'm after is a crucial difference between the primary and secondary benefits: without the primary benefits, you don't have a fighting combat-effective art. The MAs weren't created to be a kind of violent-looking dance performance. They have existed in a civilian context for a very long time simply because people are vulnerable to violence in societies in which most people—i.e., non-richies— don't get much protection from those who rule. They're not a luxury. And they aren't about spirituality, even though you can project spirituality onto damaging and killing technique sets if you want. But you can do that with skiing or ping pong, for that matter. Or any activity.

The reason this is important is that the actual reading of kata, their use as guides to combat, has been progressively forgotten, and people are left wondering what this stuff is for. As Abernethy and other bunkai-revival pioneers have noted, there is a tendency to mystify the kata in place of understanding them. As IA puts it in his landmark book Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata,

...when a movement is attributed a physical or spiritual significance, as opposed to a combative one, it is a sure sign that the person espousing the significance has no idea what the movement is actually for! But rather than be honest and admit that they do not understand the movement's purpose, they prefer to bluff their way around it.​

(p.32) Abernethy's point is not just the combat significance of kata movements, but the fact that physical conditioning, spiritual 'meaning' or supposed benefits, training in balance and so on are used to disguise the loss of knowledge of what you're calling the primary benefit. The more we tell ourselves these kinds of comforting fables about the kata, the more we enable, as they say, this kind of technical amnesia. To my way of thinking, any account of kata (especially a self-described 'penetrating, insight[ful]' account) that doesn't make the combat-technical aspect of kata primary helps promote this loss of knowledge.

So it's not arguing for arguing's sake in the least, dn. It's about resisting the confusion of some hazy, possible secondary roles that kata might play with the main reason for their existence. And the OP was a perfect, textbook example of that confusion.

 

[dnovice]

Did you think we couldn't understand any of the arguments in this discussion then?

Don't allocate notions or words to me. I'm simply stating my opinion on the matter.

 

[dnovice]

Any discussion in which people disagree about specifics can be tarred with that brush, dn—it's an easy accusation to make.

no tarring here.

But what I'm after is a crucial difference between the primary and secondary benefits: without the primary benefits, you don't have a fighting combat-effective art.

Ok if thats your point cool. However, that point can't be derived from

My own feeling is, kata are nothing more or less than convenient summaries of tactical response sets to different attack initiations—a grab, a shove, an out-of-the-blue haymaker that you have the awareness to see coming. quote]

In your own words you are saying there are no other benefits to kata, and that Hungfistron is wrong.

The MAs weren't created to be a kind of violent-looking dance performance. They have existed in a civilian context for a very long time simply because people are vulnerable to violence in societies in which most people—i.e., non-richies— don't get much protection from those who rule. They're not a luxury. And they aren't about spirituality, even though you can project spirituality onto damaging and killing technique sets if you want. But you can do that with skiing or ping pong, for that matter. Or any activity.

so you point being that as long as you can attribute a quality to event A that quality is not important when attributed to event B. I'm saying it is important. If someone plays ping pong and doesn't feel like it relaxes them or brings them to a spiritual state and kata does... then kata is important to them in that manner.

As IA puts it in his landmark book Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata,

...when a movement is attributed a physical or spiritual significance, as opposed to a combative one, it is a sure sign that the person espousing the significance has no idea what the movement is actually for! But rather than be honest and admit that they do not understand the movement's purpose, they prefer to bluff their way around it.
​

ok. I see where you guys are coming from now. It is your fear that by attributing secondary benefits to kata, you gradually faze out its practicability in a combat.

That is a valid point. However, it doesn't make the secondary benefits any less true. And thats what i'm getting at. You can't call the secondary benefits a fable because they aren't.

In short i agree with your point that solely focusing on secondary benefits versus primary benefits can lead to the deterioration of the combat effectiveness of the art. But to call the secondary benefits a fable is erroneous and condescending. Why can't you have both, primary and secondary ie.???

 

[exile]

But to call the secondary benefits a fable is erroneous and condescending. Why can't you have both, primary and secondary ie.???

Well, you can—but the primary benefit depends on skill at reading a kata, which is much harder and less accessible than the secondaries. I'm not saying that things like balance training and so on are inherently fables in connection with kata—only that they are when they're used as substitutes for knowledge of the combat content. That's the crucial bit, from my point of view. My concern is that it's very easy to think that the tail is all there is to the dog, when it comes to kata. Everything I've posted comes from that angle.

 

[Steve]

Okay. I'm lost.

 

[boobishi]

Boobishi, I completely understand the points you're making. I want to make it clear that I haven't argued against the value of kata. I am specifically addressing the OP and his assertion (or rather, his instructor's assertion) that kata is equivalent to the way animals learn in nature. I disagree with that.
.

Steve I hear you. I disagree with that assertion as well. I'm familiar with the I method and also Thornton's perspective and positions. The only real disagreement I have with them Is allowing him to determine the definition of "Alive" and as some might assume that the merit of the activity to rest soley on aquiring skill in fighting.

If a person were to practice Kata for a reason other than aquiring fighting skill than the measure of wheither they gained those skills would not neccesarily apply. Say for example her reason for practicing was increased flexiblity, better balance, improved cardio vascular health, and a desire to explore another cultures arts and mindsets? As she aquires "skill" in the performance of kata she may reach those particular goals (which she has determined to be primary) she can measure wheither or not the practice aids her in attaining what she sought.

So I beleive that it is the individual that needs to determine the goal select a behavior or practice to acheive those goals and then implement it succsessfully.

I appologise for veiring away from the original posters points but i do have one other thought. When it come to kata training for self defense or "Fighting" I have had students with very modest experience encounter assaults. Both women and men. They had practiced sparring but in each of their encounters used techniques from kata trained without a resisting opponants. Each of them was able to overcome their assailents without injury to themselves. One mom even pinned her assailent in a walmart parking lot until police arrived.

So when Matt say something is of "no" value for fighting it doesen't ring true in my experience. I would not mind if he said "little" value or "limited" value but "no" value seems only to serve as perjorative from him.

I admire Matts approach and I do not doubt for a minute the quality of his work and have people that I would consider friends in the SBG. I personally find some of his language a tad derogatory in regard to traditional arts.

A gain I'm not putting the practice of Kata or Karate as the penultimate in efficacy. I'm only saying that if left to the individual to determine their goals and what skills they wish to aquire that depending on those goal kata may be an effective (but not exclusive) way of reaching them.

With the guitar analogy in mind ones persons goal may be to play one song so he can impress a girl and get laid. Another person's goal may be to perform solo at Carnegie Hall (Like one of my friends who did.) each can measure there progress toward those goals even though they have very different aspirations.

The only real problem is when the first guy pretends or comes to "believe" that he is ready for Carnegie Hall just because he got the girl. The other possibility is that the concert guitarist may look at what the first guy does and say "This guys sucks, hes got no skills". To this the first guy might respond "What do I care? I just got laid! I'm a FREAKIN" PROCREATOR!!"
The second guys has tremendous but still can't hook up.

Sorry once again. My thoughts are prone to wander.

 

[Steve]

Steve I hear you. I disagree with that assertion as well. I'm familiar with the I method and also Thornton's perspective and positions. The only real disagreement I have with them Is allowing him to determine the definition of "Alive" and as some might assume that the merit of the activity to rest soley on aquiring skill in fighting.

Hey, I know you know. I don't know whether anyone else knew... or knew that you knew. You know? (I've had a little too much coffee today!)

If a person were to practice Kata for a reason other than aquiring fighting skill than the measure of wheither they gained those skills would not neccesarily apply. Say for example her reason for practicing was increased flexiblity, better balance, improved cardio vascular health, and a desire to explore another cultures arts and mindsets? As she aquires "skill" in the performance of kata she may reach those particular goals (which she has determined to be primary) she can measure wheither or not the practice aids her in attaining what she sought.

So I beleive that it is the individual that needs to determine the goal select a behavior or practice to acheive those goals and then implement it succsessfully.

This is precisely what I was getting at before. If a person picks up a guitar and practices diligently for a year with no intention of learning to play any music, many of the other benefits of learning music are lost as well, because the activity has no integrity... the foundation has been undermined. In a martial art, you must at least learn martial skill, or any other benefit, particularly any spiritual or mental benefits, will be illusory.

Honestly, I have no problem with people who enjoy tertiary benefits from training in Martial Arts. My goals aren't at all related to self defense. But be honest about what you're learning and aren't learning. If a woman does Tae Bo, no problem. If a woman thinks that she's gaining anything more than a good workout from it, there's a problem.

I appologise for veiring away from the original posters points but i do have one other thought. When it come to kata training for self defense or "Fighting" I have had students with very modest experience encounter assaults. Both women and men. They had practiced sparring but in each of their encounters used techniques from kata trained without a resisting opponants. Each of them was able to overcome their assailents without injury to themselves. One mom even pinned her assailent in a walmart parking lot until police arrived.

So when Matt say something is of "no" value for fighting it doesen't ring true in my experience. I would not mind if he said "little" value or "limited" value but "no" value seems only to serve as perjorative from him.

I admire Matts approach and I do not doubt for a minute the quality of his work and have people that I would consider friends in the SBG. I personally find some of his language a tad derogatory in regard to traditional arts.

Matt Thornton is making a point. I'm not as hardline as all that. In my mind, Kata is right there with shadow boxing and compliant drills, both of which are valuable.

A gain I'm not putting the practice of Kata or Karate as the penultimate in efficacy. I'm only saying that if left to the individual to determine their goals and what skills they wish to aquire that depending on those goal kata may be an effective (but not exclusive) way of reaching them.

With the guitar analogy in mind ones persons goal may be to play one song so he can impress a girl and get laid. Another person's goal may be to perform solo at Carnegie Hall (Like one of my friends who did.) each can measure there progress toward those goals even though they have very different aspirations.

The only real problem is when the first guy pretends or comes to "believe" that he is ready for Carnegie Hall just because he got the girl. The other possibility is that the concert guitarist may look at what the first guy does and say "This guys sucks, hes got no skills". To this the first guy might respond "What do I care? I just got laid! I'm a FREAKIN" PROCREATOR!!"
The second guys has tremendous but still can't hook up.

Sorry once again. My thoughts are prone to wander.

Just Kata is more akin to the kids in the River City band.

 

[Tez3]

Don't allocate notions or words to me. I'm simply stating my opinion on the matter.

Allocate? I'm asking you a question mate. Your posts seem to come across as you thinking we are stupid.
I don't think anyone here has dismissed thoughts that kata has secondary benefits, we know they have. I think you have been missing the point by being only focused on what your point is.