Karate Teacher Charged With Kicking Child Over 200 Times

[Shotochem]

There were parents in a nearby observation room! And NO ONE stepped in?!?!?!?!? :angry: I can appreciate competitive spirit. I can appreciate the concept of conditioning (being new to MA, I have a very limited experience here), but my understanding is that conditioning is based on what the instructor thinks the student can handle...not on what an 11 year old judges as "cool". I can even appreciate challenging oneself, but shouldn't the instructors have been a voice of reason and control?

That's it...put this down in the books as another example of
some people are just sheep. grrr, hiss, spit, growl!

There is a big difference between "Conditioning" and pure stupidity.

This seems to border on the latter.

What may be even more disturbing as you have stated, is why no one even asked what the **** is that instructor doing to that kid and why would they not remove their kids from that dojo as well.

It just baffles me. You would think that anyone observing and a non MA more so, would at least question what was going on.
-Marc-

 

[gblnking]

Welcome to the wonderful world of the McDojo, the karate mill. Just because someone attains the rank of BlackBelt doesn't mean he or she posses the ability to teach. Whenever I come across someone that lives martial arts as a religion I shake my head because it's those self-absorbed individuals that very well might be your childs future teacher.

 

[bydand]

Well the brothers comments have put it into perspective for me now. They're complete ****ing morons who need to be locked away. And the parents who just sat there and didn't see anything wrong need to be smacked upside the head. God help the McDojo instructors if I ever seen something like this.:angry::flammad: Oh my goodness, I just may have to sign up for anger management classes if I keep reading things like this. Just makes my blood boil with the utter stupidity people try to pass off under the MA banner. Conditioning, training, discipline, whatever you want to call this crap. If a rose would still be a rose by any other name; beating a child is still beating a child no matter what you call it.

I have to stop now before I type something that will get me banned, because that is where this is going in the express lane. :wavey:

 

[Guardian]

Well the brothers comments have put it into perspective for me now. They're complete ****ing morons who need to be locked away. And the parents who just sat there and didn't see anything wrong need to be smacked upside the head. God help the McDojo instructors if I ever seen something like this.:angry::flammad: Oh my goodness, I just may have to sign up for anger management classes if I keep reading things like this. Just makes my blood boil with the utter stupidity people try to pass off under the MA banner. Conditioning, training, discipline, whatever you want to call this crap. If a rose would still be a rose by any other name; beating a child is still beating a child no matter what you call it.

I have to stop now before I type something that will get me banned, because that is where this is going in the express lane. :wavey:

My thoughts exactly, pure stupidity and someone will probably get his **** whipped before it's all said and done.

 

[arnisador]

Yahoo! now has a video news story about it:
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/yne...N8MUMRhxOxH2ocA?ch=4226713&cl=5232294&lang=en

 

[exile]

According to the story arnisador posted, the class counted out the kicks.... ??!!

words fail me.

 

[grydth]

It's all speculation, but I have some suspicions...

From the 'defense' that the instructor's brother is offering, that the child could have stopped it, one gets the impression that at some point control of the class passed from instructor to child.... that is never appropriate.

Let's presume these were supposed to be very nominal kicks, that this misbegotten exercise was only supposed to test ability to stay in push up position, so let's do some kick counting ourselves - - - If another kid took 200 kicks, and some others also took a few score between them...... maybe this instructor is working on kick #600 by the time things get serious. Now how many people are still going to have control at that point?

The cracked rib is attention getting - but I'd worry much more about those unspecified "internal injuries".... what was she thinking??? Most parents have their kids in MA to AVOID beating like this!

I don't feel this reflects at all on other teachers or dojos..... every occupation has rotten apples these days.

 

[kidswarrior]

That's a bit bizarre....but who counted 200 kicks? Not that I don't believe what I read in the media or anything....if someone kicked me 200 times I would be more prone to worry about injury etc than thinking "hmm 198,199,200,...."

Was thinking the same thing.

 

[exile]

That's a bit bizarre....but who counted 200 kicks? Not that I don't believe what I read in the media or anything....if someone kicked me 200 times I would be more prone to worry about injury etc than thinking "hmm 198,199,200,...."

Was thinking the same thing.

Apparently (from the news clip that Arni posted) the class itself counted the kicks—they were there watching!!

No kid is going to want to look as though s/he `can't take it', particularly under the apparently aggressively macho Cobra Kai culture of this particular dojo. So the fact that the child, on the spot and trying to save face in front of his classmates, didn't stop the thing is almost the default; no adult in his/her right mind would believe that the child's silence constituted justification to continue striking him or her. Children have small bodies; many of those 200 kicks were going to be, necessarily, strike to the same still-fragile bones. And as grydth points out, the real danger has to do with the internal organs. A ruptured spleen? A damaged pancreas?

The more I think about it, the more I want to see not just the book, but a grand piano loaded with lead ingots, thrown in court at the vermin running this `school'...

 

[kidswarrior]

No kid is going to want to look as though s/he `can't take it', particularly under the apparently aggressively macho Cobra Kai culture of this particular dojo. So the fact that the child, on the spot and trying to save face in front of his classmates, didn't stop the thing is almost the default; no adult in his/her right mind would believe that the child's silence constituted justification to continue striking him or her.

Excellent point. I work with street-fighting kids (high schoolers who've been expelled) for a living, and have found they often can't even admit to themselves when they're in pain. In teaching kids a martial art, the adult instructor has to remain the adult and the instructor, even if taunted by the kid to abandon reason (which I'm not at all sure happened in this case, anyway). There are plenty of safe ways to prove machismo. One that jumps to mind is who can hold a deep horse riding stance the longest. And contrary to being physically risky, this kind of contest has huge health and practical MA benefits.

 

[Live True]

Is anyone else concerned about how this will affect public perception of Martial Arts? I'm glad the clip Arni posted did mention that this was not the norm. I'd be curious to see if other Dojos, clubs, classes in the area had a sudden drop in enrollment or kids pulled out of classes? Or even if it had a nationwide effect with how news is spread these days.

I know that I had heard some horror stories about McDojos (I called them popcorn Dojos...same diff). I know I would have started MA much sooner if not for fear of self-important idiots like this. It was only after the recommendation of someone I really trusted, and trying out a class that I was hooked. I have to say that I am loving the challenge, the outlet, and the chance to improve myself physically, emotionally, etc.

Still, I wonder how many more people would give MA a try as a child or an adult...if it weren't for stories like this?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/virginia/dp-va--kickingarrest1126nov26,0,1593850.story


The short version is the teacher was doing a 'stomach conditioning drill' where students got a kick to the stomach until they said 'no more'. A couple kids took over 200 kicks. One got hurt.

It bothers me that a qualified teacher would let it go that far. But I can totally see how it could have happened even to a qualified professional.

 

[newGuy12]

Yes, this was posted here somewhere else. People should realize that there is a correct way to play these "toughness drills" with children, and this is not it!

Instead, you should have the competitors get in a line, and do the horse stance. The last one standing is the winner! No cheating!

 

[Jai]

We use to do stuff like this as well, but as an instructor you also need to know when to put a stop to something before serious injury can happen, or any kind of injury for that matter.

 

[Guardian]

Since I've never taught kids and we did use drills like that for the adults with variations of course.

I can't see this happening with children, qualified or not qualified, that's just plain stupid in my view.

 

[newGuy12]

Since I've never taught kids and we did use drills like that for the adults with variations of course.

I can't see this happening with children, qualified or not qualified, that's just plain stupid in my view.

Right. Stupid. Injury can result.

With young children (<= 12), you must do any kind of "toughness training" in such a way that it is safe for them.

If the children have a very strong, tough teacher, and wish to be tough themselves, they do not have enough sense to "tap out" (so to speak) in time to avoid some injury. That is why you have to have them do things that are safer!

You can have them kick the side kick out and hold it in position, over the kendo stick. No one can lower the kick so that it touches the stick. The one who does so loses!

But to strike children in this way is just courting disaster!

That is the way that I see it.

There is no harm if you can get away with it for the children to be very frightened of the teacher. If the teacher says, okay, keep on!, then the children keep on. But, many folks nowadays will not allow their children to be taught in this way, which is regrettable.

And, this kicking the children business is absurd!

 

[exile]

MOD NOTE: Duplicate thread merged with earlier thread.

Bob Levine (exile)
MT Moderator

 

[IcemanSK]

This is unbelievable...& yet very believable. On what planet did this gal think THAT was a good idea?! Also, where were the ANY of the parents of the kids in the class?!

Too bad I wouldn't make it on the jury for this one.

 

[bluekey88]

I came across this thread from elsewhere. I wanted to weigh in on the question of why other parents didn't step in and stop what was happening.

First of all, the posters who mentioned the kids were essentially given control of the class were spot on. It's likely that the parents tought all was fine because the kids said so.

Second, people have a tendency to trust those they perceive to be in authority. It takes a great deal of strength and courage to speak out. Reseach done after WWII looked at how ordinary caring people could go along with such heinous things as what happened during the holocaust. One series of studies had subjects giving a series of increasing electric shocks to a person. The shock device was labreld from mild to lethal. The shockee was an actor (so not actually getting shocked). The subject was told by a peson in a lab coat with a clip board to continue. As the "shocks" got increased the actor would writhe and scream in "agony", subjects got clearly uncomfortable, some even questioning if they should continue. The lab coat person simply said "you must continue." Most people continued delivering "shocks" into the lethal range...basically because they perceived the person in charge knew what they were doing.

In the case of this karate instructor, she clearly woudl have been perceived as being in charge and in control of things...thus reducing the likelihood that anyone would have spoken out. Hell, given the way students and families rallied to her defense, it is likely there is a bit of a cult of personality thing happening.

Another factor might have been what is called diffusion of responsibility. That means that the more witnesses that see something bad going on, the less likely it is that any one person will step up and intervene. basically, each witness figures another witness will step up. In an extreme case in New York city, something like 10 people saw and heard a woman being mugged and stabbed. They clearly heard her cries for help, many saw what was going on and no one intervened. They figured someone else would do it. However, in research looking at this phenomenon, people were more likely to step into intervene if no one else was around to do so.

In the end, all responsibility for what happened rests on the shoulders of the intructors/owner of the karate school.

What's important is that those of us who teach be cognizant of our position as instructors. We shoudl recognize that we have a great deal of influence over not just our students but their parents as well (we're the experts after all). It is easy to cross certain lines and it is up to us to not do so. It is unlikely that others will prevent it.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Sanchin-J]

This is an outrage, a test to see how many kicks you can take? W.T.F?!!! I hope the instructor or instructors responsible get sent to a nice cozy cell with people who can kick harder than they can, maybe a dose of their own medicine will awaken them to just how messed up they are.

That being said, I train my son at home, he's 5 years old, and we do make contact while training, we don't hit each other full blast, but I make him aware of where his strikes should be aimed at, how each strike should be landed, how his stance should be set, and how to move his body into his strikes to gain more power. I've never hit him at more than a tap, and through this training he's already learned a good bit of control in his own striking.

I don't see physical contact being a problem in training someone, but for pete's sakes a full power kicking marathon to the side of an 11 year old??? I'd drag them out into the street and let all the parents play "let's see who can take it" and then we'll see how effective that training was.