karate not good enough?

[Bob Hubbard]

I've got the Cleary translations of both. I have to agree that 5 Rings is more 1-on-1 and AoW is more tactics for groups. I think both have some good to offer though.

I'm curious on what the 'better' or 'best' translations are?

The other question is, since 5 Rings was from a Swordsmans POV, how does that apply to Karate? or is it really the same POV?

:asian:

 

[Baoquan]

Yeah, 5Rings is written by a swordsman, but he treats his subject matter very generally. His main themes, IMHO, are avoiding dependancies on particular tools, or techniques; instead to find the correct method for using what you've got when someone is trying to hurt you (or you're trying to hurt them..).

He discusses rhythm as the deciding factor in a fight, rather than power, speed etc etc. These things are true with or without a sword in one's hand.

Case in point; Kaith's sig - is it swordsman specific? IMHO, not.

Cheers

Bao.

 

[RyuShiKan]

I think Musashi plagiarized The Art of War when he wrote The Book of 5 Rings.

There are too many similarities to just be accident.

Both books can be applied to individuals as well as groups.

 

[Baoquan]

I think Musashi plagiarized The Art of War when he wrote The Book of 5 Rings.

It's polite to call it pastiche

 

[Matt Stone]

Original question originally posted by Deathtrap101

I went to a muay tai board and asked about how karate and muay tai differd and most of what i got was that i shouldn't spend ten years learning how to fight and go to muay tai and learn in 3 months. I dont blame them for defending there system but i was wondering what everyone here on karate thought about muay tai and karate? If anyone has any opinions on how muay tai is better than karate and how karate is beter than muay tai??

First of all, if it takes ten years to learn how to fight, there would have been a lot of dead karate men in the early days, wouldn't there have been?

I remember a story of one of our school's junior students, who had been with the school for only a matter of weeks... He was in the parking lot of a minimart, and a drunk accosted him. The student managed to pull off a pretty fair block-punch-kick combo to incapacitate the attacker... No worries.

Now, were that same student to be faced with a better trained attacker, or with soldiers on the battlefield, perhaps he would have faired less well... But that wasn't the case at that point in time.

I guess the thing to ask yourself, is who are you getting the answers to the questions from? I would expect that a Muay Thai boxer would fancy Muay Thai moreso than Karate, and would therefore be inclined to make more favorable comments about Muay Thai when asked. Likewise with the Karate student.

Perhaps looking into both on your own would answer the questions you have...

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



First of all, if it takes ten years to learn how to fight, there would have been a lot of dead karate men in the early days, wouldn't there have been?

I remember a story of one of our school's junior students, who had been with the school for only a matter of weeks... He was in the parking lot of a minimart, and a drunk accosted him. The student managed to pull off a pretty fair block-punch-kick combo to incapacitate the attacker... No worries.

Now, were that same student to be faced with a better trained attacker, or with soldiers on the battlefield, perhaps he would have faired less well... But that wasn't the case at that point in time.

I guess the thing to ask yourself, is who are you getting the answers to the questions from? I would expect that a Muay Thai boxer would fancy Muay Thai moreso than Karate, and would therefore be inclined to make more favorable comments about Muay Thai when asked. Likewise with the Karate student.

Perhaps looking into both on your own would answer the questions you have...

You would also need to ask, under what "rules" would these comments be true? Muay Thai is a sport. It is derived from a War Art, the name of which escapes me at the moment, but it is a sport, and as such has rules. Real life combat has no rules.

In the '70's (I think), there were competitions held in Thailand between Muay Thai guys and Karate "masters", and also, Kung Fu "masters". They were fought according to Muay Thai rules, and guess who won.....

Muay Thai used to incorporate ground fighting as well as stand up grappling, but this was dropped after a competition between Muay Thai and Judoka. The MT guys did what they were trained to do and went to ground, then found that this was where the judoka were at home. It was the only time that every fight on the card, between MT and some other style, was lost by the MT guys.

Above all else though I think it was nailed when comment was made of "The practitioner". This is what will decide the fight!

Just my 0.02 worth.($AU)
So it is only worth 0.01 in the US.
--Dave:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

No one who is just 3 months into MT or any MA, can realisticly expect to defeat a 10 yr veteren in KT or any MA. The only possibility is IronHand(aka IronPalm or IronFist). Even then, it would still be a 10 to 1 odd in favour of the vet, if the newbie hides his skills carefully and catches the vet off guard. There is a premium in experience as reflected in superior reflexes and profficiency of techniques.

Every MA has is strength and weakness. None is an end-all be-all MA in itself.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Deathtrap101

YEa that was basicly my question(Why study something els if muay thai beats kung fu or karate regularaly?). I do my best to stay conditioned, i know that im no way near the condition of the average muay thai fighter but im working on that. I train under karate, im looking for the skill i geuss not necisarilly the style that i could be able to defend myself on the street and in the ring. I geuss all i can do is try differant things, condition myself more and keep in mind its not necisarily the style but hte individual and level of skill.

It's not as easy as that. It's not a battle between styles, but between people.

The best fighter I've seen in my life was what... A karate and aikido expert. He did beat all fighters, regardless of style.

Well, I say you stick with karate. Unless you're training in a McDojo. If your instructor teaches a lot of full-contact sparring or any other real-life situation training, then stick with him. Remember, it's not so much the style that's important, but the instructor. If you have a lousy instructor, you're not going to be succesful period. Not only that, you get what you put into it.

 

[RyuShiKan]

I always tell my students you will fight the way you train.

If you train with zero amount of realism.........don't expect to have a "good time" in a life protection situation.

Basically the art you studying is irrelevant if you train realistically.

 

[J-kid]

Its alot to do with the art you studie. I have heard of TKD people in it for 7 years and getting there butts handed to them by someone taking MT for a month. Lets just admit that some fighting styles work against others weaknesses there for all arts have there strong points. Judos strongpoint would be grappling/Throws/Submissions/. Weaknesses Kicking punching (striking) its just how arts are made and for what time period all arts have strong and weak points. Some arts are stronger then others in some areas and there for can beat that other art.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Judo Kid,

I had a BJJ guy say the same thing to me............then we went at it and I handed him his ***.
I knew what his art was capable of but he didn't know what my art was capable of. It's not the art but knowing how to use it's advantages and disadvantages.
There is no superior art........only superior minds/ skill levels.

"Know yourself and know your opponent and you will be victorious"

Sun Tzu: The Art of War

 

[J-kid]

Thats were my cross training would come in hande

MEI YAOCHEN
Since you adapt and adjust appropriately in the face of the enemy, how could you say what you are going to do beforhand?

Attack when they are unprepared, make your move when they do not expect it.

The Art Of War
Sun Tzu
Translated by Thomas Cleary

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Judo-kid


Thats were my cross training would come in hande

I didn't need to cross train. I just used his own "weapon" against him.......which is what any martial art should be teaching.

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Since you adapt and adjust appropriately in the face of the enemy, how could you say what you are going to do beforhand?

You can't say.........and if you try to say I will do this or that most of the time you will lose. You adapt to the situation at hand.

 

[MartialArtist]

Using their own weapon against them is in almost all arts, even arts where you're trying to overpower the enemy such as muay thai.

It is by far one of the most effective principles you can do. If you can execute something like that, you would become a great (insert wrestler, tai ji practitioner, TKD practitioner, muay thai boxer, etc.)

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

Using their own weapon against them is in almost all arts, even arts where you're trying to overpower the enemy such as muay thai.

It is by far one of the most effective principles you can do. If you can execute something like that, you would become a great (insert wrestler, tai ji practitioner, TKD practitioner, muay thai boxer, etc.)

But I am wonder if someone always relies on "over powering" their opponent what happens they run into someone that is bigger and stronger.
How do they "over power" them?