Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first

Discussion in 'Korean Martial Arts - General' started by Steven Lee, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first.

    Quoting Graham Noble who has a lot of reputable sources & references in this issue:

    "Breaking objects with the hands and feet has probably existed in the eastern martial arts for hundreds of years. In Japan it certainly predated the introduction of karate in the 1920s. William Bankier, the strongman "Apollo", wrote about the edge of the hand blow in his 1905 book "Jiu-Jitsu. What It Really Is", adding that "Some of the Japs who made a study of this sort of thing have been known to actually break very large stones with their bare hand. To such an extent had these men developed the heel or side part of the hand that it almost became as hard as stone." During his military service in France in World War 1, Bob Hoffman, the founder of "Strength and Health" magazine saw an example of breaking in Paris, of all places: "In France during the war, Bob Hoffman told me that he saw a Japanese sidewalk performer actually break slabs of marble with chop blows of his hand. The side of his hand was about half an inch thicker than a normal hand". In 1940 the "Japanese American Courier" reported that "Marking its 34th anniversary the Tacoma (judo) dojo will hold its annual tournament Sunday afternoon at the Buddhist Church auditorium . . . Over 40 black belts are listed for action. An additional feature on the programme will be Masato Tamura's 'rock breaking' demonstration via the ancient Japanese art of "kiai jutsu". He will also oppose a quintet of picked black belts". Tamura was a well known judoka who had got his third dan during Jigoro Kano's visit to America in 1938. In none of these accounts, incidentally, is there any mention of karate."

    Mas Oyama in America, by Graham Noble

    400 years ago, there were many history books all recording the same event of Korean Hand Breaking a large stone as big as a Soban table. https://i.imgur.com/d3vM6SR.png

    In 1692's Korea, Ikmyung Yang was also recorded to break stone by hand strike using Yongryuk. It also mentioned that Breaking/Tameshiwari is a set of games with similar nature. https://i.imgur.com/yJFsJWN.png

    Yong means stacking speed & power. Korean strike techniques also showed shoulder-push for hand strike. Mas Oyama introduced Breaking/Tameshiwari to the modern curriculum of Karate; Mas Oyama added this shoulder-push & Yong speed to Karate's Tameshiwari/Breaking. It's not from boxing cause Mas Oyama was a Korean who was familiar with Korean techniques. Also, Kiaijutsu (Korean Kihapsul/Charyuk is pronounced like that in Japanese) was popular in Japan at the era.

    In 1934's Korea, a reputable newspaper also recorded Korean Kihapsul breaking Yeonwa (soft shingles, roof tiles) with fist. It also mentioned Taoist Yoga (chejo).

    https://i.imgur.com/UqPLaLW.png

    To summarize, Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari. They got it from Korean Kiaijutsu & Korean Mas Oyama (Choi). They also adopted shoulder-push & Yong speed for hard frontal strike from Korea.
     
  2. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I think it's utterly illogical to state that one particular region (or worse, one art) has the unequivocal right to claim that it invented breaking stuff as a show of strength or even a competitive activity.

    Apes break stuff to intimidate potential opponents - it's very safe to assume they didn't get it from karate either...
     
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  3. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    This reeks of propaganda. You want to talk about having legitimate and reputable sources, you need to demonstrate critical thinking skills in assessing them. Confirmation bias is not your friend.

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  4. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    "I was first" has the right to claim a culture. Also, in any case, Japan didn't have Breaking/Tameshiwari. China & Korea had it. Also, Japan was exposed to Breaking through Korea, not through China. If you have an issue, go debate Graham Noble. China & Korea had Breaking/Tameshiwari. Japan didn't have it. Japan learned it from Korea.

    I don't see any bias. I see reputable sources & references. Breaking existed before Japan. Korea had it before Japan. Propaganda distorts logic & data. I'm not distorting anything. The conclusions arise naturally from the given data.
     
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  5. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    You have zero evidence that nobody ever thought to break something as a test of strength before those in Korea.

    Therefore, you have zero claim to "I was first".
     
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  6. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    You are seeking out data to confirm what you wish to be true, which you clearly demonstrated in the Taekwondo thread when you said Taekwondo was tainted for you because it was not purely Korean. That sir is confirmation bias.

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  7. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Burden of proof fallacy & existential fallacy. If you want to prove you had some culture, you have to prove it, not cry UFO. There was no culture in Japan of Breaking stones. In any case, Karate's Breaking comes from Mas Oyama.

    I don't need to persuade your kind of people. I just need scholars & objective people to acknowledge the truth then side with the truth.
     
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  8. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    I dont know who is pretending that Karate 'invented' breaking. Its entirely reasonable that other arts did it first and that karate even adopted it as it did with many other techniques or its not that outlandish of a thing for it to be 'invented' independently of other arts. Im sure many arts developed techniques to test themselves against objects long before Korea ever did. So i totally agree with your post, but i dont appropriate its air of looking down on Karate.
     
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  9. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Proving a point does not mean only finding data to support that point. It means finding and examining the counterpoints and placing them in the wider historical context,then deciding if the data objectively demonstrates what must have been. Your data does not do so.

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  10. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    There is no contradicting data against that Korea had Breaking. There is no logic why Korea shouldn't have Breaking. There's no proof that Korea didn't have Breaking. There are proofs that Korea had Breaking. Also, Korea had many Fight Games & martial arts historically recorded. Also, Breaking was created by trial & error with common sense strikes in power circus performance art with relation to Qiqong/Kooksundo. It's not from martial art originally. And this Power Circus teaches Breaking & strikes by teaching Breaking & practicing Breaking for Breaking.

    I've seen many people, particularly Japanese, who pretend that Karate invented Breaking & that Korea & China didn't have Breaking. I've seen people pretending Korea & China copied Breaking culture from Karate. Hence, writing articles with reputable sources.

    Yeah, I'm not a fan of Japan & Karate. Although not intentional, that air might show. I think I'm done in this website. I can't commit much to computer anyway due to my living condition. Also, there's no contradicting proof, data, logic why something shouldn't be. Even if there was any such data, it wouldn't win against my data.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  11. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    And what about credible sources from outside Korea regarding the earliest origins of breaking there? Where are your sources there?

    If you want to claim it was copied from Korea, you better have pretty solid evidence on the earliest instances in all cases and a link as to how and why the copying happened.

    Right now, everyone here is writing you off as not credible based on your TKD thread. You clearly have an agenda and a strong sense of nationalism and it clouds your objectivity.

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  12. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Sources don't have to be outside Korea. They just have to be credible. The oldest reference of Breaking that I know of is from Korea 1000 years ago. Mongol's Khan heard of Heuimok Kim being able to break a stone with hand strike. They asked for him to visit to show it off.

    I showed Ikmyung Yang's Hand Breaking record 300 years ago & Sambong Gil's Hand Breaking record 400 years ago. (There are more, I'm just saving space & time.) The copying happened because Mas Oyama was trying to sell his Karate, and he wanted to do something other Karate schools don't do. Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu was a popular audience attraction even back then as a street circus.
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Graham Noble didn't present the topic here. You did, so people will debate your presentation.
     
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  14. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    So you are saying you haven't looked into it outside Korea.

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  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, a burden of proof fallacy is when the claimant (person making a claim) attempts to put the burden of proof on someone challenging their information. Thus, you are the one committing that fallacy.
     
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  16. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    You assume we are a) not scholars and b) not objective.

    And, if you aren't trying to persuade us, then why are you here?





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  17. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    I'd be happy to know if there's a Breaking Game reference in China or Japan before Korea. Also, in any case, modern Japanese Breaking/Tameshiwari comes from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway. Both the game concept & the hitting technique (shoulder-push for frontal hand strike, Yong stacking speed as opposed to explosion at start).

    True scholars wouldn't quibble nonsense. Objective people wouldn't quibble neither beyond reasonable doubts. I'm here because I'm tired. I feel like it's me against the whole world. I want the truth to be recognized. I don't want to do what I don't have to nor want to. I want bullshits to stop in any topic or any my rights.

    Burden of proof fallacy means that the person making a claim should support with his own proofs. You claim you had something? Prove it. You want someone else to prove you didn't have something? That's a burden of proof fallacy.
     
  18. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    That's my point exactly. You SHOULD ALREADY KNOW. Otherwise, your conclusion cannot be considered robust.

    I don't think you understand the burden of proof. I also don't think you understand how critical thinking works. Maybe read up on that before you waste your time researching further. Considering the litany of misinformation that was originally distributed as a history for TKD, individual sources in Korea cannot be relied upon regardless of their age. The information needs to be corroborated in the wider historical context.

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  19. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    And I'm telling you, Japan didn't have Breaking. Korea & China had Breaking. Korea seems to be before China in Breaking. It is unreasonable to read every single existing records in the world. We just put in reasonable amounts of efforts then conclude based on it. So far, there's no logical necessity nor reputable reference denying any my historical facts, data, proofs.

    Burden of proof means, you are not allowed to say "prove that I didn't see UFO".
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    So, is your assertion that breaking was not practiced in Japan prior to Mas Oyama's introduction? Or that whatever breaking was practiced before that time simply died off along the way?

    Oh, and true scholars quibble all the time. That's how they help each other refine their conclusions.
     

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