Karate and TaeKwonDo

[Stickfighter72]

I am having an Issue, that maybe some of you can help me with.
If someone is trying to teach a mixture of Karate and TKD what would they call it?

I mean I am a BB in Shotokan Karate and Chungdokwan Korean TaeKwonDo (ITF)

and am wanting to combine the two together to make one so I dont have to say well this is from " " and that is from " ".... but I am wanting to just teach and it be from my system. Does Karate and TKD have a name some say Nam Seo Kwan, or Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan... hell I have even heard of Korean Karate.... but what would be legally used and yet easy to describe?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks

CLB:asian: :karate: :samurai: :yinyang:

 

[Cthulhu]

What level of black belt are you in both styles? If you are shodan (1st degree), I wouldn't suggest trying to create your own system, especially by merely merging the two you've studied.

It also depends on the style of TKD you've learned. The TKD guy I train with does the Pinan (Heian) forms. He also does Tekki, Bassai (not sure if it's Sho or Dai), and Chinto (Gankaku). He learned these from his TKD instructor in addition to Korean originated forms like Koryo. I know his Pinan and Tekki forms have some slight variations from the Shotokan forms. However, this is not uncommon; e.g. Wado ryu's version of the Pinans differ from Shotokan.

If you've got sufficient rank in both systems...say, 3rd dan or higher, than I don't see a reason why you couldn't teach both sets of forms. I actually think they might compliment each other rather nicely. I don't think the forms are the big issue. What could really be difficult is reconciling the different philosophies of the two systems. By this, I mean possible conflicting principles and concepts.

Then again, this is just my personal opinion, and really isn't worth a sack o' beans. What the heck does that mean, anyway?

Cthulhu

 

[Stickfighter72]

thanks for the reply....

I am a 2nd dan in Karate, and a 2nd in ChungDoKwan TKD will be ready to promote to my 3rd in Dec.

But with my Karate forms wich the first 4 wich are called Basic 1, 2, 3, and ChungGi.
Yellow-DoSan,
Blue-Pin-on shodan, won hyo
Green- Pin on nidan, Pin-on sandan
Purple- Pin on Godan, and Suesho (bokata)
Brown3rd kyu- Sue knokosho(bokata)
Brown2ndkyu- Nihanchi (ironhorse kata)
Brown1st kyu- NO FORM

BLACK 1st dan- Bassai Sho
Black 2nd dan- Bassai dai....

With my TKD forms went like this
white- Keicho Ill bu
Yellow-Keicho Yi bu
Orange- Tan Gun, Keicho San bu (wich are the exact same forms as Basic 123) (dont know why thier named different.)
Blue- Won Hyo
Green- Dosan palgwe Ill jang
Purple- Palgwe Yi jang, and Palgwe Sam jang, yulkok
Brown-Palgwe Ojang,
Black-Koryo
2nd dan-kumgang
3rd dan- po-un

I was thinking of combining these in an ordially fashio
n since they were so simular anyway... as I taught them.... but like you mentioned the differences in the culture of the Japanese/Korean philosophies.... Wich is another thing I havnt yet decided weather to use Japanese terms or Korean terms.. I guess once I do that It will decide weather it will be TKD or Karate : )

Im in really no hurry to begin teaching, but im just trying to figure it out for the future.....

I am also going to bring filipino kali in it as well at some point... Just a mixture..... I have thought merely "MY CITY" and martial arts academy.... just to bring it all together.. but I was just wondering is thier a name or a significant term that brings Karate and TKD together... I have heard of several but was just curious......

Thanks
SF:asian:

 

[Cthulhu]

There may be a problem with the terminology since Tae Kwon Do and Karate, besides being from entirely different languages, have different meanings.

'Karate' as it is written nowadays means 'empty hand'. 'Tae Kwon Do' can be translated as 'the way (or art) or punching and kicking' or 'the way of the foot and fist'. These translations for karate and TKD are not exactly equivalent.

However, 'karate' used to be written with the characters for 'China hand'. Now, 'Tang Soo Do' can be translated as 'the way of Tang (Chinese) hand'. If you use the term 'karate-do', then you have two terms from different languages with the same meaning. However, Tang Soo Do is a separate art from TKD, so it really doesn't help you much

My personal suggestion would be to go the way you've already considered, with 'your city' Martial Arts Academy/School/Institute/House of Pain , or 'Joe Blow's' Martial Arts blah/blah/blah.

As for the differing philosophies and concepts, you can do what Chuck Norris did and merge a Korean and Okinawan/Japanese style. Norris taught and was graded in Tang Soo Do, but he brought in and worked out with karate stylists for handwork, with fairly good success. Or, to paraphrase the kung fu cliche 'Southern hand, Northern legs', referring to merging the handwork of Southern Chinese kung fu systems with the kicks of Northern Chinese systems, you can use 'Okinawan hand/Korean leg'

After all is said and done, I think you just need to start teaching and see what happens. You can't create a new system overnight, regardless of experience. I think as time passes, you'll eventually settle into a happy 'marriage' between the two.

Good luck!

Cthulhu

 

[GouRonin]

There are already too many combination systems that work for the creator but not for the people who study under him.

Just teach both as is, otherwise you're messing with the gene pool and inbreeding and we all know what leads to.

That's right, kids with no teeth and eyes that are too close together playing the banjo while sucking applesauce through a straw.

 

[Stickfighter72]

exactly GouRonin..... I agree about thier being so much imbread martial arts out there.....

I dont think I was wanting to so much as start or create a new system.

Although it may have seemed that way and I see where you coming from....

As I have been doing more and more contemplating and discussing on other forums and with my TKD Instructor I was just going to continue in the path of just teaching the seperate systems as that, (seperate systems) to keep the traditionalism with them... Although as I am also working my way thru Serrada Eskrima/Inayan Eskrima I am hoping to incorporate the FMA thru my teaching as well.

I have been doing Kali (Pekiti Tirsia/Inosanto blend) for some years now... but only been doing Serrada for about 2 years now.
I have been in martial arts for about 15yrs all together and I have to be honest all the politics that goes with alot of the martial arts I just dont understand, mainly because I never cared to get involved with them before I was just wanting to learn,and now as people are coming to me wanting me to teach them I just let them decide what it is they want to learn weather it be FMA or JKD or Karate(sport) or TKD (sport)...I have been asked to teach filipino martial arts in several local Karate schools in my area and have done special classes and so on. Not trying to boast but of all the local Karate / TKD schools in my City wich there are ALOT about 15 or so.. I have to admit that I am the only person in this city that knows or teaches the FMA so I have a good start there with that..... Although alot of the other traditionalist schools here are so closed minded as to thier system rather than open thier minds and even seeing the usefullness of Kali/Silat/JKD etc....
But one day when I get financially stable and able to open a public, commercial program I'll just continue to train private and teach special classes in the advanced class of some of the Karate schools. I was just looking for some input on what I could do when that day comes I want to combine these systems together what could be called or what not. I appreciate all the input and help.... this site is awesome.

Be well
CB

 

[GouRonin]

Why not open a "concepts" school. Openly say which arts you are picking from. Set your own material agenda or curriculum for belts or sashes etc.
It's an idea.

 

[Stickfighter72]

Yes sir, that is a great possibility and a heck of an idea...I agree that could lead to some potential...


I will keep it in consideration as time permits...

thanks

CB:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

I don't think it's bad to pull things from systems to teach your own system. I think it just doesn't do any justice to the parent systems to leave things out.

By creating your own belt curriculum you can pay hommage to the mother systems and still teach the relevent material you want. But as always it's best to give credit where credit is due.

A system created for a 250lb man might not work as well for a 150 lbs man so the principles have to be there for it to work for anyone.

 

[Cthulhu]

Another thing you could try doing is to continue teaching the arts independantly, but offer an advanced course that lets you teach/emphasize on the concepts from the two systems. This could also serve as a way for you to discover the best way to blend the systems together, if that is one of your goals.

Cthulhu

 

[Rob_Broad]

Long before you create your own style you should why the two sets of forms are the same in both styles. This is the type of thing that a student may want ot know and if you can't give a real reason they will leave and they will probably take a lot of people with them. You should also consider how many schools are in your area, and will you be hurting your instructor by opening.

These are just a few things you might want to think about.

 

[Stickfighter72]

Yeah all really good points indeed.... I have to admit you fellas have openend my eyes to alot of new vents to venture into that I never really thought of . Wich is why I wanted to post this question here to begin with, was to get other views on the subject.

As far as my instructor goes for me taking from his school or what not.... is not a problem.... In the city of Muncie thier are probably 12 or more Karate schools in this City all linked together at some point. My own instructors come from Indianapolis and Ft Wayne Indiana area about an hour to an hour in a half away from Muncie... Although I know all the instructors in this town, and am freinds with them.... The competition really lies within themselves.. I am but one man in this city that teaches any other martial art other than Karate or TKD..... The other schools are strictly one or the other. My old Karate instructor was from here but he has left many years ago to live in Texas so. Its fair game as far as that goes... If people are searching for something other than Karate or TKD with less Kata/Poomse (not that thier bad) but more street effective other than Tournament level fighting.. I can offer that....... between all of them they seem to be doing well with the Karate schools on every corner. But for me to open something of a NON-Traditional or a concepts type school may bring a new era of martial artist here in the area.

SF

 

[GouRonin]

Good Luck crazy boy!
:wavey:

 

[drunken mistress]

My current karate teacher mixes a little bit of Tae Kwon Do in with his karate. He calls his classes Freestyle. Maybe you could just call yours that? He´s particularly interested in fighting and sparring aspects. The rest is mainly Shotokan plus a little general self-defence. Prior to that I was studying Shukokai but that Sensei went to another country.

 

[Makalakumu]

If you started training in TSD and you are eedan in shotokan and TKD you will know most everything up to BB. TSD is a combination of both of those arts and kung fu - which become most apparent at red belt through black belt ranks.

 

[Black Bear]

1) Taekrotty-do

2) International House of Beatings

3) Japanese Tae Kwon Do

4) (YOUR NAME HERE) -do

 

[Marginal]

Seems kinda redundant since TKD's largely derived from Shotokan. It's like combinigng boxing and bare knuckle boxing and calling it a new art.

 

[Danny]

I second that. ITF TKD is based on Shotokan. Essentially General Choi took his background in Taekyon/Shotokan (and maybe some others I am to lazy to go look up in my color belt manual at the moment) and applied scientific principals to bring them together and into the 20th Century. He had lots of time to think about it sitting in a Japanese prison I suppose. ITF TKD is therefor in essence Shotokan v2.0. So I'm not sure why you would want to teach Shotokan and ITF TKD together.

Now weather you are actually teaching ITF TKD is another matter. You are certainly not teaching the 24 ITF patterns, the ones you are you seem to be teaching in an illogical order. Why would you teach Won-Yo before Do-San? Do-San introduces elements needed for Won-Yo. Simple Kaundi Yop Cha Busigi lending to Najude Yop Cha Busigi/Gebrio So Yop Cha Taerigi. That is why the patterns are layed down the way they are, each one tends to lead logically to the next. Except for Hwa-rang. I have no idea why that pattern is learned at red belt and not at say blue strip. (I admittedly slaughtered the Korean spelling.)

You also aren't following the ITF rank system.

In any case unless you have an extensive back ground in martial arts, biomachanics, and have put several thousand hours of though into ever minute detail of your new art I don't think you should be creating a new system.

 

[Matt]

Originally posted by Stickfighter72
thanks for the reply....

I am a 2nd dan in Karate, and a 2nd in ChungDoKwan TKD will be ready to promote to my 3rd in Dec.

But with my Karate forms wich the first 4 wich are called Basic 1, 2, 3, and ChungGi.
Yellow-DoSan,
Blue-Pin-on shodan, won hyo
Green- Pin on nidan, Pin-on sandan
Purple- Pin on Godan, and Suesho (bokata)
Brown3rd kyu- Sue knokosho(bokata)
Brown2ndkyu- Nihanchi (ironhorse kata)
Brown1st kyu- NO FORM

BLACK 1st dan- Bassai Sho
Black 2nd dan- Bassai dai....

With my TKD forms went like this
white- Keicho Ill bu
Yellow-Keicho Yi bu
Orange- Tan Gun, Keicho San bu (wich are the exact same forms as Basic 123) (dont know why thier named different.)
Blue- Won Hyo
Green- Dosan palgwe Ill jang
Purple- Palgwe Yi jang, and Palgwe Sam jang, yulkok
Brown-Palgwe Ojang,
Black-Koryo
2nd dan-kumgang
3rd dan- po-un

Thanks
SF:asian:

Uhhhh....
I think you may want to check with your Shotokan teacher. That's not a Shotokan syllabus. In fact, it's mostly just two flavors of TKD.

Chon-ji is an ITF tae kwon do form. Basic 1-2-3 is probably the taekyoku series from Shotokan. Do san is an ITF TKD form, as is won hyo. The Pinan(pin-on, pinion, pyong-ahn) series is the okinawan pronunciation of the Shotokan Heian series, but was also used in the original TKD/TSD curriculum. Naihanchi was an okinawan karate form, again used as a black belt kata in shotokan, but for shotokan was renamed Tekki.

Shushi no kon sho is a standard okinawan bo kata, sometimes taught in Shotokan schools, but technically not part of the curriculum.

Bassai Sho and Dai are both Shotokan kata, but also appear in most karate styles (with the exception of uechi ryu, gojo ryu and the like) and also appear in TSD and old school TKD under the name Passai.

It's interesting that you do the ki-cho and the palgwe series, as those were the first set of 'korean' forms when the TKD folks wanted to leave behind the japanese curriculum that TKD was based on. They strongly resemble the Pinan series in form and structure.

It seems you have learned old style and older style TKD, so I wouldn't worry about keeping your shotokan 'pure'. However, I think this points up a problem. You are considering recreating what your 'shotokan' teacher already did. He/she seems to have combined TKD with shotokan and passed it off as the original. Maybe it works, and if so great, but the lack of clarity is coming back to haunt you now.

I'd just pick the ones you like best and call it "old school TKD"!People are looking for that.

Good luck,

Matt

 

[ThirdDegreeBurn]

I can see where you're coming from, my Sensei had the same sort of dilemna. In the end he came up with a nonsense name and just told us where the art came from. Now it's called Kakusareta Karate, but it began as Do Chai (all I know is that it had something to do with Tea, he wouldn't tell us before he died), and we classify it as Freestyle Karate. Why not go that way? (It began as a mixture of principles of Goju-Ryu Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Jiu Jitsu)