Kajukenbo - Black Belt Home Study Course

[Sandstorm]

There is no interaction between you and a work out / sparring partner and there is no one there to correct this interaction.
After all a belt of any level indicates your ability to defend yourself or to fight.
Someone of knowledge and ability has to be there to verify this "quality control" ranking.
After all white belt up to a Master level belt indicates your ability to fight, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Many people practice martial arts for the fitness and art side of things. Many people do not practice the arts to learn how to 'fight' or 'defend themselves'.
My main issue with these distance learning courses (if they should be called that) is that there is nobody there with you to correct your mistakes, of which there will be many. You cannot possibly earn a rank in a system/style if the techniques are not executed correctly. It all boils down to the application of the techniques within the system, regardless of the students intentions. One must apply the correct technique, in the correct manner to obtain any level of achievement on paper. I am primarily talking about Kata applications as opposed to sparring or drilling partner work, due to the obviousness that one cannot possibly execute a throw or apply an arm lock without the use of a partner.

As I said before, it all comes down to the fact that certificates should 'never' be sold through the mail.
Sure,, there are 'belt factories' that can give out dodgy certificates, maybe there is little that can be done about that. But that still holds a little more credibility than buying a rank through the mail.

Just my 2 pence worth

 

[MJS]

just to kick u

are you saying you can't learn from long distance? what are you crazy???
have you seen the ikca dvd's. they do make corrections for you. i don't thinnk u know much about anything the way u flip at the mouth.
have u called tim rockford personally and told him what u think or have u just sit behind your screen and talk this stuff?
i now mr torok personal and he is not a fraud.

bernie gorak

I'm going to preface my comment by saying that everyone is entitled to his/her opinions. While we all may not agree with each other, we do need to adhere to the forum rules. That being said, I'm respectfully requesting that we all keep this thread civil please.

As for the distance learning....I've been training Kenpo for over 20yrs. Nothing, I repeat nothing, can replace a live teacher. I don't care what kind of corrections can be made via a tape, unless someone is there, in front of you, guiding you along, the finer points will be missed.

Now, I have a pretty good sized collection of various intsructional tapes. I have some by Larry Tatum, some from Arnis, some from BJJ. However, I have teachers in all of those arts, Kenpo, Arnis and BJJ, that I go to, to learn from. Its one thing to use a tape/dvd as a guide, but as your sole learning purpose...IMO, while the student may be able to pick up a few things, they should be used as a guide only. I'd be willing to bet if you took 2 people, 1 training for an hour under a live teacher and the other watching the dvd, that the live scenario would reap better results.

This especially holds true if the student is not familiar with the art. That would be like me popping in a TKD dvd, never having done the art, and trying to mimic the forms and techniques.

 

[just2kicku]

just to kick u

are you saying you can't learn from long distance? what are you crazy???
have you seen the ikca dvd's. they do make corrections for you. i don't thinnk u know much about anything the way u flip at the mouth.
have u called tim rockford personally and told him what u think or have u just sit behind your screen and talk this stuff?
i now mr torok personal and he is not a fraud.

bernie gorak

I never called this man a fraud, I questioned his time in rank. The man may be legit and according to GM Bautista he is.

Now as far as selling rank via video, I still don't agree with that. I have never seen the ikca vids and they may be a good instructional TOOL, but thats what they are, a tool. You still need the in class training time for the proper corrections, and the interactions of live fists coming at you. Like Mr Miyagi said, "You learn karate from a book?"

Now if you don't agree with me then that's fine, I'm not trying to change your opinion, the same as you're not going to change mine.

 

[Danjo]

Can a person learn a system form a video or book?
I have to give this one a huge yes.

They can only learn the surface in terms of mimicking those things that they can see from looking at a video. Even then, they are going to be guessing that they are doing it right without an instructor. Plus, as Lawdog said, it's about fighting too. Can't fight a video.

It depends on a number of things:
the layout of the material,
There are people that can learn things from videos and books faster then an instructor can teach them and they look pretty darn good doing it. Ex, it seems that the IKCA guys are pretty good when I see them in competition and I think most of them had little if any face-to-face contact with an instructor.

Again, it's about form and how good they look to someone that is not from their art. I've looked at some people from other arts and have been impressed at tournaments only to have someone who is very knowledgeable in the art tell me that the person sucked and break down why they did. Unless you're in the same art, it's not always easy to tell how good someone is from the outside.

For example: I watch Dancing With the Stars with my wife, and I'm often amazed that the judges will rip apart a preformance that looked pretty impressive to me. But then, I'm not a dancer.

the depth of coverage of the material,
Some video series are better than others. My I-ryu instructor's instructor has a very good series out by Panther videos and it helped me tremendously with learning the I-ryu system.

Videos can be a tremndous supplement to good live training. No one is arguing that.

the person learning from the video,
Some people have a knack for learning from videos, they just happen to have a high visual accuity for video and book training. The students I have like this are great at visualization.

Some people have good mimicking skills, no doubt.

do they have a person to make corrections,
I think we all agree that this helps with anything. Having someone that can look at their technique and fix the little things is always nice, but not always practical. Ex., I don't have a Kajukenbo school anywhere near me. So how can I learn a system when their is not one near? Its videos or nothing. As has been stated, it is easy to bash when you have 100 schools within a 1 hour drive. Here in KS, you are stuck with what you have(and most of the students I have drive further than 1 hour for instruction).

Lack of an alternative doesn't mean that what you have available to you will work. It's like learning to dance (or anything else) using a blow up doll. Hard to gauge your own performance.

Now, do I believe in the selling of rank? No Way, No How. But here are many schools that are belt factories. Ex., I had one "flex-trained" Kajukenbo BB come into one of my instructor's school and take classes for a while. Was he good, not really. But how can this be? He was "flex-trained." It happened for the same reason some of the video students make it to BB and are not very good. They sold him the rank. But that does not happen in schools, does it?

What the heck is "Flex-Train" Kajukenbo???

My point I am trying to make is this, don't go crazy on somebody for trying to learn from a video or those trying to teach through a video series. They are doing the best they can with what they have. Feel free to kick the crap out of the people selling rank, including the ones selling through schools.

My problem is this: Train with what you have in your area. Find the best martial art that is in your area and train there. Don't try to learn and art from a video unless it's to supplement what you are training in live. If you ever make it to where they have live training in something else, great. But get solid at what there is where you are at. I'm always going to have more respect for a well trained TKD guy that learned it for real, than a video trained Kajukenbo guy.

Let the flaming begin.

No flaming, just disagreement.

 

[suicide]

great thread the insight is deep :jediduel:

 

[SL4Drew]

If you'll note from the above website, the video training program is for "Kajuken po", not "Kajuken bo".
Kajukenpo is the system created by Eugene Caraulia that combined his Kajukenbo, Okinawan karate, and other training together. All Caraulia's black belt ranks were issued by Robert Trias and the USKA, which recoginzed his system, "Kajukenpo".
This group (Andrew Torok and Tim Rochford) originally trained under Caraulia before later training in Kajukenbo under GM Emil Bautista.
The video series covers "Kajuken po" techniques, and grants rank in that system.

Honestly, if I were the trademark holder, I don't think I would tolerate Kajukenpo. It is quite likely to cause confusion and arguably is trademark dilution. I didn't catch it originally and was surprised he could get away with it.

 

[John Bishop]

Honestly, if I were the trademark holder, I don't think I would tolerate Kajukenpo. It is quite likely to cause confusion and arguably is trademark dilution. I didn't catch it originally and was surprised he could get away with it.

The names "Kajukenbo", and "Kajukenbo Self Defense Institute" are trademarked. But I don't know if the similar style names like "Kajukenpo", "Kajukenfu", "Kajukembo", "Kajakenbo", "Kajukenpo Pai Lum" have been trademarked. But that's between this guy and Algene Caraulia.

 

[LawDog]

Sometimes seperating the "Art" from "Martial Art" can creat one of those infamous "McDojo's".
I can understand why those who train in the KajuKenbo system are upset about someone selling rank in their system or from one that has had a single letter changed. Theirs is a well known "fighting style" that is not an "Art" only system.
No personal attacks here this is my view on what the "Military Way" should be.
:ubercool:

 

[MJS]

I have tried to read the entire thread, but please forgive me if I missed any valid points. From what I have read I have drawn some conclusions and Iwill add myown opinion of some things.


Can a person learn a system form a video or book?
I have to give this one a huge yes.
It depends on a number of things:
the layout of the material,
There are people that can learn things from videos and books faster then an instructor can teach them and they look pretty darn good doing it. Ex, it seems that the IKCA guys are pretty good when I see them in competition and I think most of them had little if any face-to-face contact with an instructor.

But, IMO, the best the person will be able to do, will be to mimic what is shown. If the person watching the dvd has incorrect foot placement, moves on a slightly different angle, etc., there will be nobody to make corrections. This is akin to a white belt looking at the training guide for yellow, and trying to follow the techniques and katas by reading. That is all they have to go on, and sure, they can 'learn' from it, but its not designed to learn from, its a training aid. I've had people do just that, and then tell me that they know the tech. when I knew for a fact that they hadn't and it looked like crap, and now I had to take the time to make the corrections. Had they just waited, things would've moved quicker.

the depth of coverage of the material,
Some video series are better than others. My I-ryu instructor's instructor has a very good series out by Panther videos and it helped me tremendously with learning the I-ryu system.

Again, I go back to my TKD example. I don't do TKD. If I were to watch a Larry Tatum video, sure, I could probably learn a tech. or kata that I don't know and would probably stand a better chance, seeing that I do Kenpo. But, again, I'm only as good as what I'm watching. If I make a mistake, Larry Tatum isn't there to correct me. Now, if I were to pop the dvd in, and work the kata that I already knew, I'm not learning from the dvd, I'm using it as a reference. I've made my own tapes, during training sessions, but I'm using those, again, as a reference.

the person learning from the video,
Some people have a knack for learning from videos, they just happen to have a high visual accuity for video and book training. The students I have like this are great at visualization.

Still doesn't mean that they really are going to be proficient at making the material work.

do the have a person to make corrections,
I think we all agree that this helps with anything. Having someone that can look at their technique and fix the little things is always nice, but not always practical. Ex., I don't have a Kajukenbo school anywhere near me. So how can I learn a system when their is not one near? Its videos or nothing. As has been stated, it is easy to bash when you have 100 schools within a 1 hour drive. Here in KS, you are stuck with what you have(and most of the students I have drive further than 1 hour for instruction).

If it were a toss up of buying and learning from dvd, driving the 1 hour or making a trip to a real legit school, even if it meant extensive travel, I'd pick options 2 and 3. If someone wants something bad enough, they'd do what they had to do in order to learn properly. Of course, sometimes we must come to the realization, that learning X art may not be possible. I'd love to learn Kaju, but there're no schools around that I know of, in my area. My opions...don't train in it, find something comperable, move to a location that had a Kaju school, or perhaps take a weeks vac. time, fly to a school, train intensively, and keep working what I was taught. When time allowed, fly back and repeat the process. Won't be as productive as if I lived in the same state, but its better than trying to learn off a dvd.

Now, do I believe in the selling of rank? No Way, No How. But here are many schools that are belt factories. Ex., I had one "flex-trained" Kajukenbo BB come into one of my instructor's school and take classes for a while. Was he good, not really. But how can this be? He was "flex-trained." It happened for the same reason some of the video students make it to BB and are not very good. They sold him the rank. But that does not happen in schools, does it?

What do you mean by 'flex trained'? As for giving away, selling or anything else deceptive....I'm strongly against places like that.

My point I am trying to make is this, don't go crazy on somebody for trying to learn from a video or those trying to teach through a video series. They are doing the best they can with what they have. Feel free to kick the crap out of the people selling rank, including the ones selling through schools.

People are free to do as they choose. However, for someone to think that because they've made it thru Larry Tatums dvd set up thru 4th degree black, that in NO way does it make them a legit 4th degree BB. What it does make them, especially if they passed themselves off as one or tried to open a school, is a fake and fraud, and yes, I'd have no issues with telling them they were a fake either. Sorry, but I have to call 'em like I see 'em.

 

[Twin Fist]

said it before and I will say it again.

if you have bo BASE, dvd's are almost useless.

a new person cant learn much from a tape.

an advanced person, say at least BB rank, CAN. Particuarly if they have studied a system thats close to whatt hey are watching. I have no doubt that a shotokan BB could take a goju tape, and pretty much be able to "get it"

no it isnt ideal, but it isnt impossible.

Danjo could, as a Kaju BB, study a Tatum tape, and prob get it.

no new guy off the street with no mat time could.

 

[Danjo]

said it before and I will say it again.

if you have no BASE, dvd's are almost useless.

a new person cant learn much from a tape.

an advanced person, say at least BB rank, CAN. Particuarly if they have studied a system thats close to what they are watching. I have no doubt that a shotokan BB could take a goju tape, and pretty much be able to "get it"

no it isnt ideal, but it isnt impossible.

Danjo could, as a Kaju BB, study a Tatum tape, and prob get it.

no new guy off the street with no mat time could.

Even then, it would only be some of it that I'd get w/out instruction. I could look at it and steal a technique or two and add it to what I have, but that would hardly make me a Kenpo expert.

 

[14 Kempo]

... the difference I see is that, yes, as a black belt, I might 'get it', but would I be getting it as it should be given the style it came from? Or am I getting it using the concepts and theories of my own style. They are not necessarily one and the same.

 

[searcher]

So let me pose a question for everyone.

If a person were to get a video series and they had only a limited number of times they could meet with an instructor, how often would a person have to meet with an instructor to make the corrections to their technique? Lets assume that the person has a solid base in MA from another style and they learn fairly quickly.

Would seminars be enough? How about class once per week? Or even once per month?

I pose this idea since it has been stated that the videos are to be used to supplement face to face training. And after having a discussion with Mr. Bishop, I had these things going through my head.

Thanks to Mr. Bishop for the insight as well.

 

[Twin Fist]

no one can become an expert on anything if all they did was study a tape of it.

Even then, it would only be some of it that I'd get w/out instruction. I could look at it and steal a technique or two and add it to what I have, but that would hardly make me a Kenpo expert.

 

[MJS]

So let me pose a question for everyone.

If a person were to get a video series and they had only a limited number of times they could meet with an instructor, how often would a person have to meet with an instructor to make the corrections to their technique? Lets assume that the person has a solid base in MA from another style and they learn fairly quickly.

Would seminars be enough? How about class once per week? Or even once per month?

I pose this idea since it has been stated that the videos are to be used to supplement face to face training. And after having a discussion with Mr. Bishop, I had these things going through my head.

Thanks to Mr. Bishop for the insight as well.

Due to my schedule, I'm not able to make it to an Arnis lesson more than 1 time a week, if that. So, I train what I can to the best of my ability and get together with a few other black belts, so we can have a workout. If mistakes are made, it may be caught by someone in the group. If not, then the next time I make it to a class or lesson, it'll be corrected then.

If someone were a beginner in an art, and wanted to use a dvd as a reference, thats fine. As long as they're reviewing as much as they know and not trying to learn anything off it, I have no issues. Again, it serves as a ref. tool.

I could go a month, and I have, before I'm able to make it to an Arnis lesson, and one of my teachers is within walking distance of my house. Therefore, I could be going a full month, screwing something up. If I have a question on something, I a) refer to my notes, b) refer to a dvd on that level, c) refer to my own tapes which were made during the lesson, d) call or email and ask for clarification. However, I'd think that once the person has advanced to the next level, they should be able to pick up on their mistakes. Ex: A green belt should be able to figure out mistakes they're making from the lower levels.

 

[Danjo]

So let me pose a question for everyone.

If a person were to get a video series and they had only a limited number of times they could meet with an instructor, how often would a person have to meet with an instructor to make the corrections to their technique? Lets assume that the person has a solid base in MA from another style and they learn fairly quickly.

Would seminars be enough? How about class once per week? Or even once per month?

I pose this idea since it has been stated that the videos are to be used to supplement face to face training. And after having a discussion with Mr. Bishop, I had these things going through my head.

Thanks to Mr. Bishop for the insight as well.

I would think that it could work with infrequent visits, but I think it would require more than occasional seminars. There has to be some sort of regular contact with an instructor at least until a fairly high rank was reached. Now, how often will likely determine how fast you progress since there is a limited amount of material that you can absorb and have corrected in one session. The longer you have trained, the more infrequent the sessions could be.

 

[searcher]

MJS & Danjo, thank you for answering my inquiry.


There may be hope yet for me to get back to the Kenpo based arts. Until then, I guess it is me and the Okinawan & Korean systems.

 

[just2kicku]

So let me pose a question for everyone.

If a person were to get a video series and they had only a limited number of times they could meet with an instructor, how often would a person have to meet with an instructor to make the corrections to their technique? Lets assume that the person has a solid base in MA from another style and they learn fairly quickly.

Would seminars be enough? How about class once per week? Or even once per month?

I pose this idea since it has been stated that the videos are to be used to supplement face to face training. And after having a discussion with Mr. Bishop, I had these things going through my head.

Thanks to Mr. Bishop for the insight as well.

I think that would depend on the person, but once corrected you would have to practice it the right way on your own. I tell the kids in class, if they watch tv, watch it in a horse or in a good front stance. They want to play vid games, again horse and front stance. It doesn't do any good to get corrected and then not practice it that way on your own.

If you had the videos, wouldn't you be tempted to go thru more advanced stuff then what you were corrected on? So I'm kinda thinking that maybe the vids should be used by someone who already has basics in that particular art. It's awfully hard to correct bad habits once they've set in. That's why I think the class time is so important.

My instructor always says, " It's not how much you know, it's perfecting what you know." So even if you only know 2 or 3 techniques, it's better to do them perfectly rather than 10 techniques sloppy. But again thats what the class time is for.

Hope this helps. I mighta gone off on another tangent tho.

 

[kenpo_guy2003]

you know its a shame there are people like you arguing over linage all the time i have legit linage in american kenpo and other kenpo systems.BUT LET ME TELL YOU THIS NOONE CAME DOWN FROM A MOUNTAIN WITH A TABLET OF STONE SAYING IVE GOT THE KARATE SYSTEM OR THE JUJITSU SYSTEM OR ANY OTHER ONE.KARATE WAS CREATED BY SOMONE SO WAS JUJITSU AND EVERY ART GOES BACK TO ONE MAN OR WOMAN WHO HAD NO MAN TEACHING THEM THAT CREATED A SYSTEM OF THE MARTIAL ARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL GOES BACK TO THE ROOT SO WHAT YOUR TRYING TO SAY IN 2009 THAT WITH ALL THE KNOWLEDE OUT THERE SOMONE CAINT CREATE THERE OWN SYSTEM WITH TIME AND STUDY WELL YOUR WRONG!! IT HAS BEEN DONE AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE DONE MY HATS ARE OFF TO YOU PEOPLE WHO CREATE THERE OWN STYLE OR SYSTEM GOOD LUCK.

 

[Danjo]

you know its a shame there are people like you arguing over linage all the time i have legit linage in american kenpo and other kenpo systems.BUT LET ME TELL YOU THIS NOONE CAME DOWN FROM A MOUNTAIN WITH A TABLET OF STONE SAYING IVE GOT THE KARATE SYSTEM OR THE JUJITSU SYSTEM OR ANY OTHER ONE.KARATE WAS CREATED BY SOMONE SO WAS JUJITSU AND EVERY ART GOES BACK TO ONE MAN OR WOMAN WHO HAD NO MAN TEACHING THEM THAT CREATED A SYSTEM OF THE MARTIAL ARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL GOES BACK TO THE ROOT SO WHAT YOUR TRYING TO SAY IN 2009 THAT WITH ALL THE KNOWLEDE OUT THERE SOMONE CAINT CREATE THERE OWN SYSTEM WITH TIME AND STUDY WELL YOUR WRONG!! IT HAS BEEN DONE AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE DONE MY HATS ARE OFF TO YOU PEOPLE WHO CREATE THERE OWN STYLE OR SYSTEM GOOD LUCK.

??? Thorazine much?