Just some thoughts...comments?

[FearlessFreep]

Harrison Bergeron
"All men are not created equal. It is the purpose of the Government to make them so."

 

[bluenosekenpo]

You do run into a lot of people doing martial arts however, who never really hink about what they're doing.They go into class and go through the motions in class, but they never do anything to make sure they could use them in an actual fight.Similarily there are people who never wonder about the effectiveness of their training.They think "This is the traditional way it was done, the way it has always been done" without realising that there are different factors to take account of these days, ie the original moves may have have been designed for fighting against armoured opponents.On the other hand you have people of the mentality "if its brand new, then it must be true", and simply accept whatever is most modern (even if its not very well thought out).When it comes down to it, even among martial artists, there are people who prefer others to do their thinking for them.

:asian:
Sheep, wolves and tigers exist in every facet of life, it was expressed quite succintly in the following observation, that the ma's are not above this. it is up to you to decide what you are, in the ma's and in life.

Training: Tigers and Sheep
​

Sometimes karate training can be called training as a tiger or training as

a sheep. If you train as a tiger -- hard training and body conditioning --

you can always train with tigers. Other tigers will also recognize you and

you can train in peace with them. They know that when two tigers really

fight that one will die of injuries today and the other will die of injuries

tomorrow. Both will die, so they have nothing to prove.



If you train like a sheep -- no contact and no two-man conditioning --

then you can only train with sheep. A tiger can train with tigers and he can

also train with sheep. He just has to be careful not to hurt them. A sheep

cannot train with tigers. Sheep see tigers as being very frightening and

their conditioning, he says, will cause cancer. A sheep training with tigers

will get eaten up.



Sometimes you see a sheep who sees the truth of tiger training and

changes. In reality this sheep was actually a tiger in sheep's clothing

waiting to come out.



Watch people training. Look at how they act and how they behave. A tiger

can be like a little kitty but dangerous even though he is friendly. They

are quiet and watch everything. They listen and watch. They know who they

are and they have nothing to prove -- they are at peace.



Sheep, on the other hand, make all kinds of noises and demand to be heard.

They run around and seem to crave attention. They are easily hurt and easily

scared. They always group together for their own protection. When danger

approaches they look towards the group for protection because they cannot

defend themselves. They are easy prey for tigers -- whether it is one sheep

or several, sheep are still sheep.



-- Ryuko Tomoyose, Uechi-ryu



regards

 

[Autocrat]

An interesting turn on the topic......

Society is doing sdome strange things.... in the education system in England, we are no longer permitted to have sports days with competative events... this leads to losers and competativeness.... which is apparently bad!

So saying, this sort of thing is also occuring i the work place.... you don't get "worker of the month" and that sort of thing, you all get a pat on the back!

If this is followed to the logical conclussion, then everyone will be the same, have no drive to perform or achieve above average results etc...... and we'll all turn into sheep due to excternal influences from our peers, (which by rights, according to them, we don't actually have ?)

((NO OFFENCE RE: SHEEP - grossly generalised terminology! LOL))

SO, shouldn't it be the other way around... rather than nu,llifying the sense of participation and achievement, shouldn't it be aimed at encouraging the lesser performinag parts of society to become greater performing parts?

Along the same lines, we could generate a society doesn't frown upon or punish physical violence, only it's uses.... thus those that practice such things are accepted, whilst those that use it for the wrong reasons are punished!!!! ((Hey, wait a minute, isn't that in the law... you know, legally being able to defend ones self with the means necessary as the situation dictates??? YES, then why do I keep being arrested and charged for kicking the S out of people that try mugging me????)


We really ought to create a big drive about this, in every country possible.... that way it will get the emdia attention it needs and something could be done about it!

"NO MORE FLEECE, I WANT TEETH" and that sort of thing! LOL

 

[loki09789]

Harrison Bergeron
"All men are not created equal. It is the purpose of the Government to make them so."

LIke the idea, but I would say that it is the government's job to provide equal opportunity.

We all have the same opportunities to an education (though the quality may vary) and social services that can help you climb out of holes/bad spells (and don't try to bilk the system) so that you can create as stable a life as possible and get some kind of trade/educational skill/job that will take you to the next step and so on.

Yes, starting points will vary, but those services are there. They are not run perfectly, they are not a complete blanket, but it would be far worse without them at all.

I know a neighbor of my ex's that was living on adjusted housing, taking dental hygenist classes at the local junior college AND working (as much as she could without losing social services support) while raising an infant totally alone. Within 2 years she had a trade, started a job and was well on her way to getting totally off social services. She used that 'equal opportunity' that was available and took charge of her future. She was literally alone too. No family, boyfriend/husband...anyone. The neighbors all pitched in for each other some but that isn't something that you can always count on or trust.

She was leadership material as far as I am concerned. She took charge and made a difference personally. That is the beginning of any leadership training, leading yourself.

 

[still learning]

Hello, The average person " the regular good person" are not expecting to get into a attack by others. When this happens alot of people are not prepare and will freeze because this is an unexpected thing. (Shock by it) Plus most of us are taught not to get into a fight?

Our martial training is about self- defense and not fighting back like in real street fight style. Continuous hitting untill the other person cannot fight back. Who trains like that? Every fight will be diffferent and in a different surroundings and hours of the day. Best thing is to read books by guys who are experience in the real street fighting, like the book "Real Fighting" will make you think harder at your own training style? Can we be prepare for the unknown attack on us? that can happen when we least expect it? Kinda of like driveing down the road and someones cut right in front you "bang" that's it. Now what?

PS>In the book it says the only way your punches, kicks and strikes will work is to really hit full contact and watch the reaction of it. Many times you will be surprise the strike may not be effected to the other guy you had hit? Who can train full power strikes on other person for real and real training? and see the affects of your hits?

 

[Autocrat]

...still learning...
Depending on what you are doing, you don't need full force... just hit the right spot!
(easier said than done! LOL).
Seriously, if your techniques is correct, and the target correct, you will win, in a few moves they can be on the floor crying, gasping or completely out! No one hit wonder techniques, just simply employ strikes to the throat, groin, kneecaps, ankles, elbows or ribs!
I've had situations where I have belted someone in the ribs with two right hooks, and felt the ribs go, yet the bugger still tried taking me out!!!! Taking his ankle out put him down, and he couldn't get back up!
No full power, just two short sharp jabs to the ribs with a little hip movement, then a low round house kick to the base of the leg!
Simple really!

As for the affectiveness of attacks... they vary from practitioner to practitioner, target to target! I have about 40-60% body nerves that work! Most of the time my sensei's try out a pressurepoint, vital point or nervecluster attack, and get no response or a slight give when I should have crumpled! Don't rely on these sort of things! Train for them, but train more for physiological weakneses in the mechanics of the body rather than all those wonderful nerve based sweet spots! If you are attacked by someone like me, then the only thing that will help you is taking out limbs and joints through angle strikes... attacking points won't be effective! Also, you don't need a lot of force to wrench a wrist, jar and elbow or take a knee joint out! Just a bit of moment and the right angle!

Try training for that sort of thing instead!
Best moves..... side kick to ankle/knee/hip-pelvis.....snap kick - flick kick to groin/inner thigh/shin.....flick to groin/throat/eyes/nose......slap to side of head/nose/throat......spear hand or short jab to ribs/solar plexus/lower abdominals.....and if they grab you, simple grab hand/arm, step back and round!

These are the things I feel work on almost everyone..... keep it short, sharp and vicious. It's you or them... I'd rather it was them!

 

[An Eternal Student]

It seems society is increasingly encouraging us to accept mediocrity.No matter how well intentioned it is, to make everyone equal, it also robs people of any desire to improve.It's political correctness taken to yet another ridiculous extreme.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Like the idea, but I would say that it is the government's job to provide equal opportunity.

It helps to see the movie

 

[lonecoyote]

Someone should slow down this bandwagon. Everytime I see this discussion it turns into an elitist thing, in other words "Most people are sheep, but not me of course, I'm a Tiger, (Wolf, Aardvark, whatever)" This is what most people are alluding to. Feeling superior. Almost everybody acts like a sheep sometimes. Take someone out of their depth, put them in unfamiliar, uncomfortable circumstances and they will cling to the group and its actions and opinions. Happens in forums too. Everyone is coming from a certain point of view on this thread. Baa Baa. People can have certain sheep like(?) characteristics, which can be detrimental in a self defense situation, these characteristics can be changed through training and mindset. People aren't one thing or another as far as this kind of thing goes, it exists along a continuum. We can change and learn to defend ourselves, which is what some of these great posts say. I only have a problem with those who seek to make broad, sweeping categorizations of society. These generalizations rarely hold up and are rarely productive. Better instead to look at individuals and how they can make themselves safer.

 

[Tgace]

Well thats a far friendlier conversation to have..and I agree. Strange how one sentence, which was far from the point I was trying to make has become (turned into) the crux though.....

 

[FearlessFreep]

I dunno...I read something like "most people are sheep" and turn it into introspection.wondering if I actually fall into the category of 'most people' being used by the person saying it. Maybe it's time to look at myself and think about what's being said...it's happened before.

If I don't fit, then that's good and at least the introspection was useful. If I do fit, then it's a good thing someone said something and I took the time to be honest with myself

 

[Bod]

The 'people are sheep' line and the 'we call them sheeple' comment appear constantly in MA discussion.

It kind of misses the point. When a group of youths attacks a single male of larger build are they sheep? Hyenas? Jackals?

Some of the individuals are often just going along with the pack/herd. They are exhibiting the same group dependency as the next guy.

About three years ago on one board there was a discussion about a man who didn't get involved to help his friend in a fight. 'He was just a sheep', 'he should have learnt MAs', 'he is despicable' etc.

I replied that the same thing had happened with me, but I understood the inaction of my friend. He doesn't do MA because he is a jobbing piano player. Any finger injury would mean he'd starve for 3 months. The incident was over in 3 seconds. He wasn't a sheep. He was an artist of great quality who'd brought the joy of music to many people, especially as choir master at my local church.

Lonecoyote (worthy of the name) expressed it perfectly. Baaing in unison 'They aaaaare sheeeeep' doesn't make you any more resistant to danger. the only useful attitude is to look for the sheep inside yourself and understand it: what it is for, when it is useful, when not so, how to get around it, how to get along with it.

 

[Tgace]

Tgace knows where I stand on this idea. Considering we spent much of our youth either beating each other up, egging each other on or flat out inspiring each other to do 'crazy' stuff (skydiving, joining the service, rock climbing, big 80's Ninja wannabe stuff, martial arts, theater, writing....) I can see where this 'no life half lived idea' is even larger than just martial arts and self defense to Tgace.

We 'learn' (or more importantly develop the behavioral patterns) of leading, following or getting out of the way from the way we live all the details of our lives. Sometimes we have to unlearn this habit or learn discretion so that we make good initiative decisions.

Unfortunately, I think that as a modern trend, 'cooperation' has turned people into followers instead of 'team players.' I see it in my son at times when he talks about gym class or even music. "Second violins are just as important as first violins, says Mrs. XYZ" is his response when I tell him that being promoted to first violin is a sign of improvement and that it is okay to strive for personal best.....

Second violins ARE as important to the whole as first violins BUT, generally speaking, first violins are FIRST because they are better players.

I have never really been the wall flower in a group and at times that has meant that my mistakes or failed attempts have been very obvious and noticeable, but I have LEARNED from those mistakes - in and out of martial arts. I took those risks knowing that there was a risk...and learned that there is a price to acting, but a larger ones usually (life long regret at the very least) if you don't act.

I think as instructors and parents, it is sooo important to do more than pay lip service to the idea that people can have "good initiative" but may have exercised "poor judgement" and give people, students and ourselves room to screw up but learn from that. When we were in the Bos, I use to tell my squad that it wasn't the mistakes that we made that defined our character but how we dealt with them afterwards. On the positive, be accountable for yourself, learn from it, identify what needs to be corrected and move on. On the negative, deny, deflect and lay blame/cut someone else down to make yourself feel better and you'll just do it all over again later on.

Though I don't think that one automatically leads to the other, I do think that daily practice of moral/character and leadership habits in a moral courage way can make physical courage/crisis leadership habits easier to 'learn.'

Wow..finding some personal, deeper meaning instead of focusing on the word "sheep"...:shrug:

Were on the same page...heck we read the same textbooks didnt we??

 

[loki09789]

Wow..finding some personal, deeper meaning instead of focusing on the word "sheep"...:shrug:

Were on the same page...heck we read the same textbooks didnt we??

I think I still have some of them that you loaned me.

Hey! Where is my copy of "TAO OF POOH!" Do you still have that?


It is 'interesting' though that with all the ways this conversation starter could have gone, it had to be steered onto a tangent of defending one term usage....I wonder who 'led us down the dark path' on that one?

 

[michaeledward]

Wow..finding some personal, deeper meaning instead of focusing on the word "sheep"...:shrug:

Were on the same page...heck we read the same textbooks didnt we??

Gee, I thought the post was asking for 'comments?'. I didn't realize you only wanted 'comments' that agreed with your point of view.

I think I still have some of them that you loaned me.

Hey! Where is my copy of "TAO OF POOH!" Do you still have that?


It is 'interesting' though that with all the ways this conversation starter could have gone, it had to be steered onto a tangent of defending one term usage....I wonder who 'led us down the dark path' on that one?

This is my third post on this thread ... obviously, I am posting excessively. Don't be afraid to add me to your 'Ignore' list. Honest, it won't hurt my feelings.

Mike

 

[DarrenJew]

A quote from the "Tao of Pooh"


"Lots of people talk to animals," said Pooh.
"Not that many listen though."
"That's the problem."



​

 

[loki09789]

Gee, I thought the post was asking for 'comments?'. I didn't realize you only wanted 'comments' that agreed with your point of view.


This is my third post on this thread ... obviously, I am posting excessively. Don't be afraid to add me to your 'Ignore' list. Honest, it won't hurt my feelings.

Mike

No one is asking for instant agreement, but knitpicking a term usage over all the other substantial tangents seems....well knitpicky.

There is no fear of reading or ignoring your posts. As this thread deals with personal leadership and 'unsheepish' behavior, by all means lead, follow or get out of the way as you see fit (that means if you think using 'ignore' is a viable option, go for it). I am doing fine myself.

 

[Tgace]

Alright lets change "People are sheep" to "Most people have innate social programming to go along with the group." Reread and see if that makes a difference.....

 

[MA-Caver]

Alright lets change "People are sheep" to "Most people have innate social programming to go along with the group." Reread and see if that makes a difference.....

:lol: it still reads "BAA" to me... :lol:
But that is a better way of saying it. grins

 

[Autocrat]

LOL
Well done!
Whats more, it works well!

Please, for those of you that dislike the term SHEEP or such, please don't be offended, it is a term commonly used, even in the psych- and Socio- fields..... it's not a term for insult, it's a term for generalisation.

Alternatively, go for the Greek alternatives for defining people..........
Wolves.... pack instinct, seldomly loners or do things of their own accord.
Lone Wolves...... singular, seldomly follow others, can be edgy in groups.
Bear..... Seldom found to be social, yet when do so are loud, wild.
Lion..... Seldom in groups, seldom work together. When mixed, tend to be violent....
and so on.... these are still GROSS GENERALISATIONS..... yet tend not to include small farm animals tha tpeople can be offended by... almost all are predators.....
(I think it's greek... maybe roman or such! LOL)


BACK TO THE THREAD!

Lets try a quick whip round..... how about every one who has been in a situation or thought one might occur, post what their reactions where ? You know, put whether you positioned yourself to cover the most approaches, moved to the neasrest exit, placed things ready to grab and use, got into a comfortable stance, lashed out when someone asked for directions, hit a granny who sneaked up behind you, froze when they smacked you in the mouth, that sort of thing?

It would just be interesting to see the results! ? !
No / Yes ?
Atleast that way we can see