Just some thoughts...comments?

[Tgace]

I have been giving some thought to how much of the self-defense issue is simply having made a decision to act.

Most people are sheep. I recall when I was in college. I had a evening class in a large lecture hall. Every time I went there people would be standing outside the door waiting for the professor to show up, walk in and turn on the lights. One night I decided to try something. I walked right past everybody, went in, turned on the lights and sat down. Thats when I learned that 99% of leadership is "doing" and 1% "telling". Everybody just followed me in. Its the "somebody else will do it" thing.

The point? I was thinking about how a few terrorists with box cutters could do what they did. Outnumbered as they were. The story I have heard is that people on cell phones were telling their loved ones that the flight crew was telling everybody to remain seated and stay calm. Granted, that was SOP at the time, but it illustrates the tendency humans have to "follow". IMO much of it is because we give little thought to what we would do in these situations. Either out of denial (that will never happen to me) or believing somebody else will take action. In that situation, if the BG's had guns or explosives, I could see waiting. Contact weapons though...there was probably enough heavy objects in the overhead compartments alone to pummel those dirtbags to the deck just by throwing them.

I believe as martial artists, training for self defense, that techhnique is useless if the students mindset isnt propper. Somebody with no training, but a determination that they will never be forced into a truck at the hands of a killer. That they will die on the spot rather than be taken somewhere else to be tormented and killed. Is going to be more formidable than a black belt who hasnt made that conscious decision.

Stories of the Samurai are filled with such examples. The way of the Samurai was "to take hold of the long and short swords and die". Now with that in mind, they trained daily because the goal was still to defeat the enemy. However they had already determined their mindset and that is what made them formidable warriors. Skill was secondary to mindset. Note I said secondary, not exclusive from. Skill followed close behind. Im not saying "forget about training if you have the right mindset" by any means. Just that training in any skill alone isnt going to do you any good if you are taken by suprise or are mentally unprepared to use those skills.

The best way to develop this "mindset" is to simply decide whats worth fighting for and how far you are willing to go to survive. Like the situation I mentioned before in regards to being forced into a vehicle. Dont become paranoid that these things are going to happen to you. Just decide what you are going to do. That way when the !!!! hits the fan the odds are better that you are going to act. This comes directly from LEO training. When I respond to a call I run through a general scenario in my head. How Im going to approach. If im going to wait for backup. Is this a "guns up" situation? What is the arrest plan going to be? Granted the way it turns out is never to plan, but the point isnt to make situations "fit" the plan. The point is to be ahead of the BG in the OODA game by having my "decide" list already narrowed down. That way I can hopefully Act faster than the BG can Orient on what Im doing. In your day to day life you can play this game too. "What am I going to do if a BG trys to hold up the store im in?" "What am I going to do if that guy on the corner approaches my car at this red light?" (did you leave enough space between the car ahead of you to pull around?) Play out a little scene in your head.

Last and probably most importantly, when the time comes to act, act. Better to be slow in the decision than halfhearted in the execution. And remember that "winning" is surviving, not beating your opponent. Do what you need to survive. If you can run, run. If this is a deadly force situation grab whatever can be used as a weapon. A pen, coffee mug, stapler, anything. I believe it was Musashi who (loosely) said "it is disgracefull do die with a weapon yet undrawn". All this H2H stuff is for when you are caught totally unprepared and unable to grab anything. Start there as a base, but not as an end all be all.

 

[TigerWoman]

I'm on the same page. After that Texas abduction and murder of that 20 yr. old, I told my daughter I would have fought like hell before anyone got me in a car. Better in the parking lot with everyone around. Before I took MA, I found out how I would feel. Someone followed me to the parking lot, grabbed me as I was sitting down in the car. I got angry, furious, and I kicked him luckily in the groin and yelled at him, got away, started the car and got out of there. Then the knees started knocking. Its just a moments decision of instinct--fear or fearlessness. Should have started martial arts then. TW

 

[MA-Caver]

Indeed you are correct (both of you). In other posts I've advocated repeatedly "brain-training" on top of the physical training for Martial Arts/SD. Nothing beats experience, but in the case of Self-defense/fighting who the hell really wants that experience to begin with? Hopefully no-one honestly. It's no fun, it's scary as hell and painful to boot. But, since we are involved with Martial Arts in one form or another we should prepare for the unexpected. Women in particular because (sadly) they're more likely to be the victim of an assault. With men it's going to probably be attributed to meeting some other guy who's exceeded their testosterone level for the month and wants to get bad-assed with anyone that looks at them the wrong way, more likely it's a guy at the wrong place at the wrong time, i.e. mugging or store robbery or wherever!
Today I attended a caving-self-rescue class given by one of my old mentors. And even he stressed that nothing prepares one better than "brain-training". It's relevant to all of life's activities. When driving we need to watch far enough ahead for the moron behind the wheel that could cause us to be in their accident. Whatever it is. But the topic here is self-defense and I'll stick with that.
It's one thing to prepare (mentally) in advance of various scenarios, it's still another to do it realistically enough and honestly enough (of your abilities) to be properly prepared for the unexpected. By realistic and honest I mean that whatever cool/neat/awesome moves you saw in the movies ... 99.999% of the time it ain't gonna work in real life. You must be totally honest with yourself of your current abilities to kick someones' hide. If you're a white or yellow belt, you're only going to do so much, but at least you're going to (hopefully) do it well enough to get you out of that bad situation you're presently in. If you're a brown or BB then yeah, you got a whole repetoire of techniques to draw from to fit the situation whatever it may be, if you're somewhere in-between those two levels then you know (or should know) where you're gonna stand in a real fight.
You should go through your house in the full dark and know where everything is, doorways, furniture, kitchen counters, etc. and be able to maneuver quickly to a place of safety. Brain train for that possibility: someone is in the house and I'm in here, the lights go out, how do I move to my place of safety from where I'm at? What will (can) I do if confronted while getting there?
From the office/store/mall building to your car think of your escape routes if someone confronts you. How far did you park and what other vehicles can you place between you and them while enroute?
What are you wearing? Can you run effectively in those shoes (high heels or slick bottomed loafers/dress shoes)? But point is to be realistic. Try it out whenever you can and where you won't have (too) many people looking at you strangely while you're practicing.
The list goes on.
Another level of preparedness is emotional. Like I said it's no fun and it's scary as hell when someone accosts you. Your mental state should help you with your emotional. Being calm and clear headed and assessing the situation (correctly I might add) will help knock down (but not eliminate) the fear factor considerably. You can always break down "knee-knocking" and trembling and crying later. I do.
The mugger/robber/whomever is going to count more on their scaring the hell out of you so you won't do anything than anything else. You'll be one up on the SOB's if you can tone down the fear that threatens to rise up inside when the attacker pulls out a knife or a gun or simply comes at you with raised fists. Your reaction should be like that at (MA) school during sparring and practice... calm and ready for anything, such are meeting an aggressor on the streets.
(read my sigs again).
:asian:

 

[Adept]

MACaver - I wanted to give you a greeny for that post, but MT tells me I must share the lovin' first. That was an excellent post.

Whenever I'm teaching self defense, I emphasize over and over, at the start, at the end, and during the class (session, whatever) that the most important part of your body to train is your brain. You need to constantly be aware of your situation and the people around you.

It is also crucial to set 'triggers'. For example, you spill a guys beer in a pub, and he starts getting aggro and refuses to calm down. He's looking for a fight. You think to yourself, as he adances toward you; "I'm going to start acting defensively when he passes that barstool. If he continues to act like this, and gets within [whatever your 'first strike' range is] then I'm going to act" Too many times people think they will be able to defend themselves, but leave it too late to act, or simply dont even realise a situation is developing.

 

[Paul Genge]

The biggest hinderence to a person using a knife for self defence is the fear of what will happen when they do. This is the same for applying unarmed defensive skills too.

Most people that practice some form of martial art have little or no experience of real fights or dealing with the legal system. This causes the consequences of using any form of self defence skill to be a big unknown. This is usually enough to cause the majority of people to put of until it is too late using what they have learnt in a martial arts class.

The difference between the average criminal and an ordinary member of the public is that the criminal has been in fights and been involved with the law. Both of these things give them an obvious advantage because their decission making process is going to be streamlined by experience. It is therefore to learn from people who not only have the skills, but have the experience of dealing with the prefight decission making and aftermath of a fight.

I agree that one way of starting streamlining your own decission making is to give it some long and hard fought whilst in the comfort of your own home. The difficult thing is to be honest and to put your pride aside. Otherwise you will try to convince yourself that you will react in certain situations a certain way, but when faced with it you will react according to your personality and not what you planned.

Another thing to do is learn about the law in your country. Try to learn from a Police officer if you train with one. This person should have some experience of applying the law to the post fight situation for it to be of real benifit.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[Autocrat]

It's a very serious issue..... and difficult to prevent from occuring.

Almost from birth, in most societies, we are taught "violence is wrong", "you shouldn't have to resort to violence", "ignore them and they will go away"... and other such BS!

I can only begin to describe the troubles and issues I had through school, college, even in the work place due to aaggrevation, attacks or simple bullying. My father trained in several MA's, and even my mother took up combat judo. I was taught to spot the trouble and put it out, fast!

Our societies currently breed sheep and lambs, bleating for attention and calling forth wolves! Whats worse, i'ts the same societies that breed the wolves!

To deal wit hthe brain conditioning, I've only found one method of practice that works. Get a person who wishes to learn, and start gently... explain the situation, explain what is about to occur, and get them to state what they think they would do. Then enact the scenario. Step by step, slowly build the movements. Alter their reactions until they are comfortable. Then increase the speed, the tension, and the general atmosphere of aggression. After 20-30 minutes of that every other night, 9say a total of 4 hours0, if you leave it a couple of days, then approach them from behind and try something, you general find yourself on the end of a strike!

It's all down to the individual. If they don't want to be aggressive,violent, reactive... then they are going to be wolfed up! If they are willing to defend themselves in what ever means are necessary, then I feel it's our duty to help..... the same as it should be if you see something happening.... politely enquire if help is needed, then thump the F'er over the head whilst they answer you!

Yet the most important thing of all is to teach them to spot the problem whilst not to be seen looking for it! The nteach them to run like hell.
I'm violent... I'm willing to hit out and put someone down for a long time if it is necessary... yet my sister had similar training as a child... yet prefered making people suffer and bullying them! You can't trust the person to use what they are taught for good.... so teach everyone to see it coming and run, or prepare for the consequences!
Hell, if I wasn't so stupid when I get angry, I'd walk away too, yet..... der... ug... bash! LOL

As for the legal side.... if they actually studied the MA's rather than believing the stuff on telly, it wouldf be easier. Further, who in their right mind is going to pick on 5 blokes in a pub! Yet just because you are the one to walk away relatively unhamed, you get slammed for it! Sod the CCTV, the witnesses etc.... it's because of the injuries you dealt out that you get punished... not because of guilt! The legal system is shot away... not alot can be done with it except teach MA/SD practioners the ropes, how to answer and unfortunately, how to lie!
That way, if they need to use it, and get caught, they may not have to suffer for it!

 

[Gray Phoenix]

Great topic...

When I was in Junior High, I was roughed up on a pretty regular basis. I was the nerdy kid and of a minority race in the area I grew up in. I was an easy target for any wannabe predator. On one particular occasion, I was grabbed by 4 and beaten by another. Upon reporting this to the dean I was told that I did the right thing in not fighting back!!

I had the option of pressing charges, but if I had fought back I was told that I would have been expelled for fighting as well.:angry:

Well I'm a grown man now, and not a total Jujitsu noob; (although, I still recognize I'm a noob

) this will never happen again. I may still get roughed up, I may even lose, but there will be at least 1 or 2 guys on a stretcher next to me.

 

[michaeledward]

I have been giving some thought to how much of the self-defense issue is simply having made a decision to act.

Most people are sheep.

You lost me with that second sentence. Anything you might have wanted to discuss is lost as soon as you called me a 'sheep'.

Nice to know you have so much respect for your fellow human beings.

michaeledward

 

[Gray Phoenix]

You lost me with that second sentence. Anything you might have wanted to discuss is lost as soon as you called me a 'sheep'.

Nice to know you have so much respect for your fellow human beings

.



Most people are sheep. I believe the quote from Abraham Lincoln directly addresses and warns us against this very fact.



"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
--Abraham Lincoln

Freedoms are rarely taken away they are most often given freely.


It would also explain how our planets various despots come to power and then dynasties... I don’t think that because someone is a follower and not a leader that this is some kind of put down, but the analogy of the sheep and the herder still applies, although most certainly not to all, and I would guess it would not apply to most MA practitioners.

 

[TigerWoman]

I have been giving some thought to how much of the self-defense issue is simply having made a decision to act.

Most people are sheep.

Well, considering how many people are actually in martial arts, pro-active in wanting to be able to defend themselves, that says alot about people as sheep. They don't choose to.

Sheep do not want to fight or even think about fighting. They follow.

Sheep are also those that believe the common advice to submit to an attacker and you might get away with your life. TW

 

[Tgace]

You lost me with that second sentence. Anything you might have wanted to discuss is lost as soon as you called me a 'sheep'.

Nice to know you have so much respect for your fellow human beings.

michaeledward

Many people are egotistical sheep that think everything is about them....

 

[michaeledward]

Many people are egotistical sheep that think everything is about them....

When I see a statement that "Most People are Sheep";

I think that by using the adjective 'most' the speaker intends to say 'some percentage greater than half". Perhaps the speaker does not mean as many as, oh, 80% of the people, because at that point I would expect a phrase like 'vast majority'. But I also think the speaker is not talking about 52% or 53%. No, but 'Most', I would assume the speaker means perhas 6 out of 10, or 7 out of 10.

With the noun, 'People', I would take it to mean the speaker intends his 'fellow citizens', or perhaps those people whose culture is close to his own; sharing the same language and experiences. Certain, in this case, I might generalize to think the speaker is talking about either a) North Americans, or, perhaps if we were to cast a wider net, b) those descended from the English Empire (Great Britian, North America, Austrailia & New Zealond, and perhaps India).

Certainly, I would think, based on these assumptions, the speaker contains a bit of arrogance and superiority. Further, by definition, I would expect that I would fit into the group the speaker is calling 'Sheep'. I have no reason to see why I would fit into the minority that is not 'Most'.

Any way I interpret the sentence 'Most people are sheep', it comes as an insult; whether intended as such or not. Sure makes it hard to have a conversation.

Go in peace, Great Shepard.

Mike

 

[Sapper6]

great topic Tgrace.

@ michael

save the english lesson for another time. Tgrace is right. most people are sheep. of course the MA trains us otherwise. i don't see how in the world you could disagree with what's been stated. then again...

 

[Tgace]

great topic Tgrace.

@ michael

save the english lesson for another time. Tgrace is right. most people are sheep. of course the MA trains us otherwise. i don't see how in the world you could disagree with what's been stated. then again...

Its rarely about the (intended) message.....

 

[Tgace]

It would also explain how our planets various despots come to power and then dynasties... I don’t think that because someone is a follower and not a leader that this is some kind of put down, but the analogy of the sheep and the herder still applies, although most certainly not to all, and I would guess it would not apply to most MA practitioners.

Yes. But I would say that just taking MA classes is a first step. Ive met many technically proficient MA that I can just "sense" are still hesitant, indecisive, and lacking in "fighting spirit" if you understand me. We all have to achieve our own "mindset". MA is a tool to get there IMHO, but nobody is going to "give it to you".

 

[Adept]

Any way I interpret the sentence 'Most people are sheep', it comes as an insult; whether intended as such or not.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[An Eternal Student]

You do run into a lot of people doing martial arts however, who never really hink about what they're doing.They go into class and go through the motions in class, but they never do anything to make sure they could use them in an actual fight.Similarily there are people who never wonder about the effectiveness of their training.They think "This is the traditional way it was done, the way it has always been done" without realising that there are different factors to take account of these days, ie the original moves may have have been designed for fighting against armoured opponents.On the other hand you have people of the mentality "if its brand new, then it must be true", and simply accept whatever is most modern (even if its not very well thought out).When it comes down to it, even among martial artists, there are people who prefer others to do their thinking for them.

 

[Bod]

Well if you don't blindly agree with all us wolves that makes you a sheep Michael. :shrug:

 

[loki09789]

I have been giving some thought to how much of the self-defense issue is simply having made a decision to act.

Most people are sheep. I recall when I was in college. I had a evening class in a large lecture hall. Every time I went there people would be standing outside the door waiting for the professor to show up, walk in and turn on the lights. Last and probably most importantly, when the time comes to act, act. Better to be slow in the decision than halfhearted in the execution. And remember that "winning" is surviving, not beating your opponent.

Tgace knows where I stand on this idea. Considering we spent much of our youth either beating each other up, egging each other on or flat out inspiring each other to do 'crazy' stuff (skydiving, joining the service, rock climbing, big 80's Ninja wannabe stuff, martial arts, theater, writing....) I can see where this 'no life half lived idea' is even larger than just martial arts and self defense to Tgace.

We 'learn' (or more importantly develop the behavioral patterns) of leading, following or getting out of the way from the way we live all the details of our lives. Sometimes we have to unlearn this habit or learn discretion so that we make good initiative decisions.

Unfortunately, I think that as a modern trend, 'cooperation' has turned people into followers instead of 'team players.' I see it in my son at times when he talks about gym class or even music. "Second violins are just as important as first violins, says Mrs. XYZ" is his response when I tell him that being promoted to first violin is a sign of improvement and that it is okay to strive for personal best.....

Second violins ARE as important to the whole as first violins BUT, generally speaking, first violins are FIRST because they are better players.

I have never really been the wall flower in a group and at times that has meant that my mistakes or failed attempts have been very obvious and noticeable, but I have LEARNED from those mistakes - in and out of martial arts. I took those risks knowing that there was a risk...and learned that there is a price to acting, but a larger ones usually (life long regret at the very least) if you don't act.

I think as instructors and parents, it is sooo important to do more than pay lip service to the idea that people can have "good initiative" but may have exercised "poor judgement" and give people, students and ourselves room to screw up but learn from that. When we were in the Bos, I use to tell my squad that it wasn't the mistakes that we made that defined our character but how we dealt with them afterwards. On the positive, be accountable for yourself, learn from it, identify what needs to be corrected and move on. On the negative, deny, deflect and lay blame/cut someone else down to make yourself feel better and you'll just do it all over again later on.

Though I don't think that one automatically leads to the other, I do think that daily practice of moral/character and leadership habits in a moral courage way can make physical courage/crisis leadership habits easier to 'learn.'

 

[An Eternal Student]

Unfortunately, I think that as a modern trend, 'cooperation' has turned people into followers instead of 'team players.' I see it in my son at times when he talks about gym class or even music. "Second violins are just as important as first violins, says Mrs. XYZ" is his response when I tell him that being promoted to first violin is a sign of improvement and that it is okay to strive for personal best.....

Second violins ARE as important to the whole as first violins BUT, generally speaking, first violins are FIRST because they are better players.

'

I think there was a bit in the Incredibles that summed up this all quite nicely.
"Everyone's special,dear"
"Isnt that just another way of saying nobody is?"

Society has become so Politically Correct about everyone being special and important, that most people have lost any desire to improve themselves.