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Don Roley

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Just a quick note, the Black Dragon Society has nothing to do with ninjutsu outside of the fantasies of people like Ashida Kim.

The original was a Japanese society that started in the 20th century to serve Japan's interests. Yes there was some sneaking and killing people from behind, nothing that the rest of the world has not seen and nothing "ninjutsu"specific about it.

The second group was started by a guy calling himself Count Dante who had some martial arts schools and ads on the back of several comic books. Some people consider him a joke, some a great martial artist. But his orginization had no link to ninjutsu until Ashida Kim tried using the name and affiliation. Rather nasty legal stuff went on.

Kim started a few orginizations overseas using the Black Dragon name. Here is an example of one of them.

http://www.blackdragongermany.de/

Personally, I find them pretty amusing. They have no affiliation with either the original Japanese version or the one started in the US. They were started by Ashida Kim followers as far as I can tell.

Just a side note, whenever people like Sojobow start talking about things like this, demand sources that you can access yourself. If he refuses to give it (check his past posts- it is his pattern to do so) then just ignore what he has to say. It saves a lot of screaming in the long run.
 
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MisterMike

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Ah yes, Count Dante - and his "Dance of the Deadly Hands". I actually read and committed that thing to memory about 17 years ago in High School. I get a chuckle out of it now.
 

Shogun

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The original was a Japanese society that started in the 20th century to serve Japan's interests. Yes there was some sneaking and killing people from behind, nothing that the rest of the world has not seen and nothing "ninjutsu"specific about it.
Exactly. If we were to claim any killing done behind backs, than most cases of homicide would involve ninja. The martial art commonly associated with the BDS is Shorinji Kempo. only because a member (Doshin So) "created" it when he "studied at the Shaolin temple".

Cheers.
Shogun
 

Don Roley

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Shogun said:
If we were to claim any killing done behind backs, than most cases of homicide would involve ninja.

Ninja are not the only people who kill people from behind. And I have never seen any credible evidence that the kokuryukai had any link to Japanese ninjutsu traditions. I am still looking, but so far nothing.

Oh, and I should have mentioned that the "Black Dragon Society" was named because "Black Dragon" is the Chinese charecters that make up the Amdur river that was the northernmost point in Japanese imperial expansion plans.
 

sojobow

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There was/is the Black Dragon Tong of Retribution, The Black Dragon Society and the Black Dragon Fighting Society (whose membership comprised mostly of Koga) just to name 3. The Black Dragon Fighting Society, together with one Chinese Ninjitsuist and two Korean Ninjitsuist were responsible for a failed attempt to assassinate Ieyasu Tokugawa 5 centuries ago. Old Shogun escaped with the help of a snitch from what I've read.
 
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Brother John

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could we please, perhaps, create a seperate thread on this "Black Dragon Society" stuff and it's merits as a 'ninjitsu' entity?
Seems to be keeping most from highlighting what makes their Ninjutsu group/school...whathaveyou...unique.
Seems a distraction.
Thanks

Your Brother
John
 
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Elizium

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Well one quick google search and I turn up facts regarding the Black Dragons and Yakuza.

Black Dragon Description

The Black Dragons were the Amur River Society (Kokuryu-kai) in 1930s and 1940s Japan. The Black Dragons were ultranationalists heavily involved in the conquest of China, and as spies and fifth columnists subverting nations targeted for conquest. The Black Dragons were active up and down the Pacific Coast of North and South America. In the United States, Black Dragons were a concern to Lieutenant Commander K.D. Ringle of U.S. Navy Intelligence and other security officials. On December 7, 1942; Black Dragons led Banzai! cheers at the U.S. Manzanar Relocation Center; the anniversary of the Japanese attack on U.S. forces at Pearl Harbor in 1941. The Black Dragons led and fomented riots and carried out acts of violence at Manzanar, Tule Lake Segregation Center, and other sites where Japanese enemy aliens and Americans of Japanese ancestry were located. The Black Dragons and other ultranationalist organizations provided the nucleus for the formation of the postwar Yakuza organized crime syndicates. See (Dubro and Kaplan, pages 36, 67, 85 and 192). Also see Tony Matthews in Shadows Dancing, pages 43, 46 and 222-223. A number of Black Dragon members were in the Japanese government and many were charged as war criminals in 1945.

http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/1895-1945/dragon.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/1spy/Black_Dragon.html

http://members.tripod.com/ravenshrine/blackdragon.html

So sojobow, if you like the Black Dragon society you better chop off a finger and go to Japan.
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
There was/is the Black Dragon Tong of Retribution, The Black Dragon Society and the Black Dragon Fighting Society (whose membership comprised mostly of Koga) just to name 3. The Black Dragon Fighting Society, together with one Chinese Ninjitsuist and two Korean Ninjitsuist were responsible for a failed attempt to assassinate Ieyasu Tokugawa 5 centuries ago. Old Shogun escaped with the help of a snitch from what I've read.

The above seems to come from Ashida Kim's history page. The original story is the plot for a grade "B" ninja movie that was released in America about 20 years ago.

Somehow I just can't take Ashida Kim seriously, or people that use him as a source. You may note that people with a reputation for serious research won't touch the story as Sojobow states it and as it appears on Kim's site. It is just a silly movie plot with nothing to do with reality.

Kind of like sojobow.
 
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Elizium

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Don Roley said:
The above seems to come from Ashida Kim's history page. The original story is the plot for a grade "B" ninja movie that was released in America about 20 years ago.

Somehow I just can't take Ashida Kim seriously, or people that use him as a source. You may note that people with a reputation for serious research won't touch the story as Sojobow states it and as it appears on Kim's site. It is just a silly movie plot with nothing to do with reality.

Kind of like sojobow.
Shhhhh we are ninjas, we want to trip up sojobow the ninj3r :2pistols: :rofl:
 

sojobow

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CHILDREN PLEASE!!!!!!! Anyone here notice that threads become very disjointed by people with words like "Bujinkan" or Taijutsu" typed in their "Art and Rank" profiles? Maybe if they'd just go away and post in their own sub-section, we'd be better off here.

Brother John asked for schools or groups that would be considered as practicing in the modern world. Wish those with the Buj and the Tai would just go practice your Samurai artform and let us Modern Warriors deal with ours. Just a thought on how we might be able to get back to Brother John's question.

And in that vain or vein, Brother John, would you consider today's Special Forces (i.e., Navy Seals, Army Rangers), U. S. Central Intelligence, S.W.A.T,British Intelligence and Special Forces as "a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?"

I would. Whatyathink?
 

Don Roley

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sojobow said:
Brother John asked for schools or groups that would be considered as practicing in the modern world.

More specifically, ninja groups. Which is why your suggestion of the black dragon society caused such mirth. The fact that your historical source turns out to be a bad ninja movie plot on the Ashida Kim site only makes it funnier.
 
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Genin Andrew

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sojobow said:
See what I mean. Roley's Raiders.
Roley's Raiders...lol. Would you put me into that category Sojobow? I mean heck, I have the word 'Taijutsu' typed into my art/rank profile!

But me and Don have bumped heads in the past and still do on certain issues so i wouldnt call myself one of his Raiders perse.

"And in that vain or vein, Brother John, would you consider today's Special Forces (i.e., Navy Seals, Army Rangers), U. S. Central Intelligence, S.W.A.T,British Intelligence and Special Forces as "a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?"

As Don has already stated, Br John was referring to "Ninja groups" not elite combat units,although some consider them to be 'modern day ninja' or the modern equivelent to what the Ninja were in the 17th century.Personally i believe this to be an incorrect comparison. And i do not need to explain myself as those familiar with ninja history and what a ninja was/is would understand.

But I will. Todays special Forces are primarily combat Units,trained specifically for the defence of a country and to take on assignements not suitable for the regular Forces.This means skills are honed to near perfection such as counter-terrorism day in day out.There is very little spiritual development and philosophical teaching in todays SF.Without disrespect to any SF personel many of them don't have the appreciation for the natural world like the traditional ninja would've.I think thats a fair statement.

Finally with comparing modern SF to traditional ninja we are forgetting a major fact, Ninja were not primarily elite combatants!!!!!!!!they did not flip out and kill or train to do the latter everyday of their lives!!! The only fair comparison that can be made between the two is that similarities can be found in 'certain roles' such as escorting/protecting important political figures,covert raids,stealth techniques and such but i will end there...absorb this and debate it as you wish,all that was very general and hypothetical.So relax lets nt get personel.
 
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Genin Andrew

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sojobow said:
See what I mean. Roley's Raiders.
Roley's Raiders...lol. Would you put me into that category Sojobow? I mean heck, I have the word 'Taijutsu' typed into my art/rank profile!

But me and Don have bumped heads in the past and still do on certain issues so i wouldnt call myself one of his Raiders perse.

"And in that vain or vein, Brother John, would you consider today's Special Forces (i.e., Navy Seals, Army Rangers), U. S. Central Intelligence, S.W.A.T,British Intelligence and Special Forces as "a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?"

As Don has already stated, Br John was referring to "Ninja groups" not elite combat units,although some consider them to be 'modern day ninja' or the modern equivelent to what the Ninja were in the 17th century.Personally i believe this to be an incorrect comparison. And i do not need to explain myself as those familiar with ninja history and what a ninja was/is would understand.

But I will. Todays special Forces are primarily combat Units,trained specifically for the defence of a country and to take on assignements not suitable for the regular Forces.This means skills are honed to near perfection such as counter-terrorism day in day out.There is very little spiritual development and philosophical teaching in todays SF.Without disrespect to any SF personel many of them don't have the appreciation for the natural world like the traditional ninja would've.I think thats a fair statement.

Finally with comparing modern SF to traditional ninja we are forgetting a major fact, Ninja were not primarily elite combatants!!!!!!!!they did not flip out and kill or train to do the latter everyday of their lives!!! The only fair comparison that can be made between the two is that similarities can be found in 'certain roles' such as escorting/protecting important political figures,covert raids,stealth techniques and such but i will end there...absorb this and debate it as you wish,all that was very general and hypothetical.So relax lets nt get personel.

much respect
-andrew
 
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Brother John

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sojobow said:
And in that vain or vein, Brother John, would you consider today's Special Forces (i.e., Navy Seals, Army Rangers), U. S. Central Intelligence, S.W.A.T,British Intelligence and Special Forces as "a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?"
I would. Whatyathink?
No, I wouldn't. They have a similar function in their paramilitary/covert-ops, but that's about the extent of it. I wouldn't consider them a "ninjutsu school or group" really. Guess I'm getting at schools/groups/associations....etc. that are derived from Real Ninjutsu but have been modernized.
Thanks

Your Brother
John
 

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