Jujutsu, Ju-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu, Jiujitsu

[oaktree]

Being serious. If jiu-jitsu is English, by way of Portuguese, by way of Japanese, at what point can you no longer say that it's misspelled? What I mean is, it's misspelled if you're talking about a correct transliteration from the Japanese characters. But is it still a Japanese word at this point? Talking specifically about the BJJ term.

If you are talking to Westerners its fine I guess. But if you say it to a native speaker they may look puzzled at you. If Japanese tourist came up to you and said where is the Ice creamoo store you might say what is Ice creamoo?? oh Ice cream.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ahhh how I miss the naiveté of my youth

Not a sport in America...over 30 years ago... where we were full of AWSOMENESS...and attractiveness

Oh, Xue, Xue, Xue.... thinking that I meant a mere few decades ago was "before"... my friend, I count these things in centuries, not decades. Oh, for the days of Taryu Jiai, when Jujutsu meant you both probably had short swords or knives, there was no submission, just restraint or breaking them.... oh, such fun. And that wasn't even the scary stuff there!

Oh, yeah, and happy birthday, Michael!

 

[lklawson]

Bah.

You're all wrong.

When it was first brought to the West (don't ask how I know), it was Jiu Jitsu.

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/american-jiu-jitsu/12187945
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/jiu-jitsu-and-other-methods-of-self-defense/9017549
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/jiu-jutsu-or-jiudo-selection-from-kodokwan-method/1371282
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QBywTS...v6w/Jiu-Jitsu's leading exponent May 1907.pdf (Jiu Jitsu's Leading Exponent - 1907)
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QBywTa...iu jitsu Salt Lake Tribune Sept 1 1907[1].pdf (Salt Lake Tribute - 1907)

Bunch of others, but that's enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Chris Parker]

Bah. The OP was asking what the proper, accepted spelling is now, not how wrong did they get it originally...

Realistically, "Jujutsu" for anything Japanese (if it's spelt "Jiu Jitsu" and is claiming it's directly from Japan, there's something not quite right...), "Jiu Jitsu" for Brazil, and either for any modern, Western interpretation. But hey, I'm a purist, if it aint Japanese, it aint Jujutsu, and it don't matter what they call it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh, Xue, Xue, Xue.... thinking that I meant a mere few decades ago was "before"... my friend, I count these things in centuries, not decades. Oh, for the days of Taryu Jiai, when Jujutsu meant you both probably had short swords or knives, there was no submission, just restraint or breaking them.... oh, such fun. And that wasn't even the scary stuff there!

It matters not.... I know this is all just jealously based on the Awesomeness...and attractiveness of us old "Japanese" Jujutsu/Jiu-jitsu guys

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey, I'm neither disputing, nor doubting, any awesomeness or attractiveness.... I'm sure you thought you were!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey, I'm neither disputing, nor doubting, any awesomeness or attractiveness.... I'm sure you thought you were!

THOUGHT!!!!

Oh yee of little faith

 

[Xue Sheng]

Bah.

You're all wrong.

When it was first brought to the West (don't ask how I know), it was Jiu Jitsu.

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/american-jiu-jitsu/12187945
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/jiu-jitsu-and-other-methods-of-self-defense/9017549
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/jiu-jutsu-or-jiudo-selection-from-kodokwan-method/1371282
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QBywTS...v6w/Jiu-Jitsu's leading exponent May 1907.pdf (Jiu Jitsu's Leading Exponent - 1907)
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QBywTa...iu jitsu Salt Lake Tribune Sept 1 1907[1].pdf (Salt Lake Tribute - 1907)

Bunch of others, but that's enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yes and they.... like me....were AWSOME!!!!!

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes and they.... like me....were AWSOME!!!!!

I would suggest that they got their awesomeness from you, but they are EVEN OLDER THAN YOU so it's impossible.

How old is dirt, anyways?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would suggest that they got their awesomeness from you, but they are EVEN OLDER THAN YOU so it's impossible.

How old is dirt, anyways?

Dirt is old, that is all I can tell you... you are not yet old enough to know the truth of dirt

Actually my AWESOMENESS comes from Kaan Sensei.... who was/is older than me...so maybe they got it from him


HAPPY BIRTDAY MICHAEL

 

[clfsean]

Dirt is old, that is all I can tell you... you are not yet old enough to know the truth of dirt

My dad named dirt right after he rolled Noah for his lunch money... He hasn't told me the real name of dirt yet.

 

[lklawson]

Triple Bah!

There is only one correct way, either modern or ancient!

And until the Ministry of Truth reminds me that it is now and has always been "JuJutsu" then it is "Jiu Jitsu"!!!

As for awesome and good look'n, you've SEEN my avatar, right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Chris Parker]

Triple Bah!

There is only one correct way, either modern or ancient!

And until the Ministry of Truth reminds me that it is now and has always been "JuJutsu" then it is "Jiu Jitsu"!!!

術 = Jutsu (Practical Art)

not

実 = Jitsu (Truth)

As for "Ju"/"Jyu"/"Jiu"/"Juu", they are slight differences in pronuciation for 柔 = Ju (Soft), with "Jyu"/"Juu" being the closest. The Ministry has spoken.

As for awesome and good look'n, you've SEEN my avatar, right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Nice... but for true attractiveness and awesomeness (so much so that the full extent of each cannot be shown in such a small avatar space), check out my avatar, my friend!

 

[Sukerkin]

ROFLKLITA

I just want to say how much I've enjoyed reading this thread and thank you all for the many chuckles it has raised .

 

[lklawson]

The Ministry has spoken.

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

It still seems like you guys are caught up in the Japanese root. Jiu Jitsu isn't a Japanese word. It's an English word derived from Japanese.

Do we argue that "father" is the correct spelling of the word for the male parent? It's an English word. The German word is from the same root, but they spell it vater. In Dutch it's vader. In Spanish, it's padre. The root is "pader", but we don't now say that we spell it wrong. The word has evolved. Meanings morph over time, as do spellings and pronunciations.

In my opinion, it's off base to suggest that an English word is misspelled because we don't spell it... or even pronounce it... in the same way as the root language. While I can in some ways concede a desire for accuracy where the style remains closely associated with its Japanese roots, this is particularly true if we're talking about jiu jitsu by way of Brazil.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ultimately spelling it Jujutsu, Ju-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu, Jiujitsu does not really matter, I was just curious about how it is supposed to be spelled traditionally. I use to be a real hard nose when it came to spelling things Chinese, just look at some of my earlier posts. But now I'm ok as long as I know how it is spelled, however you spell it, as long as it is not WAAAAAAAAAAAY off its ok with me, I am not sure I could handle Tye Chee, Win Choon or shin yee, but Yale, Pinyin, Wade-Giles or charcters I’m ok with these days, for that matter, believe it or not, I'm ok with Cantonese too . But ultimately if you want to be a jujutsu purist you would only go to schools that had a sign out front that said 柔術 and no other spelling would do. But to be honest if my first sensei was teaching and still spelling it Jiujitsu...well...I'd be there. Although it may be difficult because I think he may be in Florida now and that is one heck of a commute from NYS to take a Jiujitsu class… but you know… I would think about it.

What matters is how you train your given style and that is all. If you find a great school that is training correctly and has a great teacher and they spells it Jiu-Jitsu and based only on that spelling, because they do not spell it jujutsu, you don't go there, you would be, IMO, more than a bit silly. However I will admit if they spelled it Jajitsee I’d really have to think about it long and hard.

EDIT

For the record, I should add that in the early 70s I was training Japanese Jujutsu but it was spelled Jiujitsu and back then I never heard of BJJ

 

[yorkshirelad]

I think the different spellings of Jujutsu can be useful. For instance, I tend to see arts that are spelled Jujutsu to be more traditional Japanese arts, if not Koryu, then arts that are at least traditional, like Daito ruy or hakko ryu. Jujitsu would seem to be western interpretations of Jujutsu. Robert Clark's WJJF would be an example. The history of the syllabus used by WJJF is a little hazy, but now it is an established standard within the European Jujitsu community and used English words for it's techniques. When I see the word Jiu jitsu, I automatically assume that Brazillian Jiujitsu is being practised.There may be only one technically correct way to spell Jujutsu, but the differentiation in spelling is a useful aid in recognizing the distinction between arts.

 

[Chris Parker]

It still seems like you guys are caught up in the Japanese root. Jiu Jitsu isn't a Japanese word. It's an English word derived from Japanese.

Do we argue that "father" is the correct spelling of the word for the male parent? It's an English word. The German word is from the same root, but they spell it vater. In Dutch it's vader. In Spanish, it's padre. The root is "pader", but we don't now say that we spell it wrong. The word has evolved. Meanings morph over time, as do spellings and pronunciations.

In my opinion, it's off base to suggest that an English word is misspelled because we don't spell it... or even pronounce it... in the same way as the root language. While I can in some ways concede a desire for accuracy where the style remains closely associated with its Japanese roots, this is particularly true if we're talking about jiu jitsu by way of Brazil.

See, now that's where I argue the point....

"Jujutsu" (and it's resultant variants) are not English words, nor Portuguese, nor anything but Japanese. The idea of it being a loanword, or transplanted term don't change the way it should be spelt. Both these concepts imply the word is borrowed from the original language (in this case Japanese), not that it becomes a part of the recieving language (English). And in that regard, it remains a Japanese word, no matter how many cultures and languages bring it into their lexicon.

As to the root languages changing the way that things are spelt, yes, that is the way it happens... when a language is formed from base, or root, languages. In English's case, that root comes from Latin (which is where "pader" comes from, and was a root language for much of European language forms), Germanic, Norse, and a few others. But none of it comes from Asian languages. What has happened is that certain Asian terms, phrases, and words have made their way into popular vocabulary. That does not make them English, though, any more than the use of "au revoir", or "ciao" make those words and phrases English, instead of French or Italian... and there the same common root language is present.

If "Jujutsu" was an English word, it would most likely be spelt "W R E S T L I N G", or "G R A P P L I N G". But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as one, no matter how common it may seem.

 

[elder999]

If "Jujutsu" was an English word, it would most likely be spelt "W R E S T L I N G", or "G R A P P L I N G". But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as one, no matter how common it may seem.

I think that those would be calques, or translated loan words, if that were the case.

Stevebjj is spot on about this, btw.

All of the various English spellings of 柔術 are acceptable to a varying degree. The idea of the Brazilian variant using the archaic "jiu-jutsu" has become the norm, just as the spelling of "jujutsu" has become the linguistically acceptable Romanized variant. While I agree with you in principle, Chris, and spell it this way, quite frankly, you don't understand the way loan words work. If it were spelled "joogutsu," and pronounced the same way, it wouldn't matter-that would be English spelling. Since we've had several spellings over the years-some rather appaling to your sensibilities-all of them are acceptable, and to be found in the best of English language technical manuals (that's engineerspeak for dictionary), as variants, where expert lexicographers, scholarly men and women whose job it is to decide, on a yearly basis, what is actually a word and what is not.

If you have an argument, it's with them, but they are the ultimate arbiters of what constitutes an English word, and how it may be spelled.

(Rather reminds me of the argument over "colour" and "color." We know what you mean, they're both acceptable, and why should we care? :lfao