Judo or Taekwondo for best self defense?

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by BmillerWarrior, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. GreatUniter

    GreatUniter Yellow Belt

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    But on judo competition, a competitor doesn't take punch to the face (or kick, knee etc.). On training, sport's judo doesn't prepare a practitioner for real self defense, only for competitions (there are few exceptions). If a judoka doesn't train for the real fight with real resistance (not grappling resistance) then what's the point of training a martial art for self defense? It's true that there are different goals for martial arts practitioners why they start to train, but self defense is more than modern so - called sport combat.
     
  2. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    A competent judoka should be able to close the distance and initiate the proper clinch effectively. Will he get hit on his way in and get KOed? Possibly. But boxers who solely train punching (and everything associated with punching) also get caught. TKDers who train a lot of kicking get kicked. Same for everyone.

    The serious competitor is generally going to be in far better shape, have far better reflexes, far better timing, etc. than the average Joe. Competitive judoka, wrestler, BJJer, etc. has a clear advantage over most untrained people. Just because none of them traditionally train to strike and get hit with strikes doesn’t outweigh this. I wrestled from 3rd grade all the way through high school. I never formally trained any striking until a few years after I was done. None of that mattered much when I got into real fights. I knew how to close the distance, avoid getting hit, and throw my opponent on the ground and keep him there while I did whatever I wanted to do. I wasn’t the baddest fighter out there by any means, but unless I fought someone who had more substantial training and/or more sheer mental toughness and fighting experience than I did, I wasn’t going to be a pushover by any means.

    I’ve found that the proper mindset in a fight is a significant part of the battle. Taking a hit and keep going will carry you a long way. Any competitor in any martial/combat sport worth anything has learned this. Boxing, wrestling, Judo, TKD, BJJ, etc.; doesn’t matter in this regard. If you’re not going to fold once you feel pain, or not going to crawl up into the fetal position once someone scares you a little bit, you’ve got a pretty good chance. Any serious competitor has moved past that.
     
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  3. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When you get hold of your opponent's leading leg, you can

    1. push his upper body down.
    2. lift his leg over your shoulder.
    3. pick his whole body up.
    4. pick his whole body up, rotate his body in the air.
    5. press his neck down, spin his body.
    6. sweep his standing leg.
    7. hook his standing leg.
    8. horse back kick his standing leg.
    9. lock his leg between your legs, press his upper leg down.
    10. ...

    to throw him.

    How to finish your "single leg" depends on your opponent's respond. If your opponent's body is

    - leaning back, you hook his standing leg and throw him backward.
    - leaning forward, you sweep his standing leg and throw him forward.
    - sinking down, you press his shoulder and throw him down.
    - raising up, you pick up his body and throw him behind you.
    - ...

    You may need that 1 second to detect your opponent's intention so you are not using force against force. This may still involve with timing. But the timing is for the next move and not for the current move.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  4. GreatUniter

    GreatUniter Yellow Belt

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    I don't know for you, but I have seen a boxer, mma fighter and karate competitor (that have some experience in competitions), all were beaten by "an average Joe". Probably because they wasn't prepared for street fights or they had not the proper mindset (and yes, those three are my friends and at that time had 3+ years of fighting experience). In my younger days, I also trained wrestling in amateur gym, although not so seriously at that time. The teacher there was nice, he knew some advanced techniques and was a smooth talker (he can inspire you to think that you are invincible). I was really into wrestling, every day trained with bigger and stronger opponents, even though I didn't compete. And guess what? Once, there was a street fight, I was attacked by two smaller opponents (older in age, smaller by body - construction) that had no experience in martial arts, but in street fights and I got beaten only because they were more agile than me. All that I had learned, I couldn't use at that time, only evasion (still useless because I got beaten). After that, I started to learn basic karate moves (kicks, punches, blocks and stances) without katas and when I got into fights after that, I usually used karate moves that I had learned + wrestling evasion and never lost a fight on the streets (one on one unarmed, one on two or three unarmed, but still got beaten by 5 or more on the streets at that time). At that time I had proper body training, hard body that can take several good hits.

    My current teachers always say: "never underestimate a person in a fight, you don't know how capable is he, even if he is untrained, because you don't know his intention, his goal and for what he is fighting, because human mind is the best human weapon". I have seen really experienced martial artists (outside from those three) that had been beaten by experienced street fighters without proper martial arts training. I told before, I will again now, it's rarity in modern days to find proper teachers, because today's martial arts are raped. Even mma, bjj, boxing, judo etc. are no longer what they used to be, mainly because there are really few proper teachers and masters around the world. Almost all martial arts nowadays are for business and teachers are finding ways of making money or are youtube learners, book readers and God - knows - from where they buy licenses. Numbers of real masters are decreasing. It's a shame. In my opinion, nowadays there are even a fewer people (not teachers) that train properly, even train the mind for actual fight (generally there are more focus on competitions and winning).
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  5. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    There’s nothing magical out there that’s going to make you invincible. After getting KOed by a bum in the ring one night, Tommy Morrison had a perfect quote in my mind (paraphrased) “If you give a 200 lb guy a clean shot at your head, he’s going to knock you out. It doesn’t matter how much better you are than him.” That’s how fighting goes; one mistake will make all the difference. We all make mistakes. No training out there nor amount of training will make us perfect fighters. Just because a trained fighter lost a street fight to an average Joe doesn’t negate their training. And how do we know for a fact that that person doesn’t have any training?

    No training is going to turn anyone into a fighting machine that’ll never get beat. All it’ll do is improve the odds. No one is impervious to that one lucky punch that’s timed and landed right. That’s a good thing and a bad thing all at once.

    As far as teachers out there that aren’t teaching how to actually fight goes, sure, there’s plenty of them out there. But there’s plenty who aren’t either. To say all MA teachers have lost touch with the reality of fighting is nonsense. There’s plenty of good teachers teaching good stuff. You just have to look around, just like everything else.
     
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  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I've had disputes with folks about how "aiki" works, on that same element. I think it's almost entirely about timing (and a very tight timing - the reason aiki is so hard to find in real encounters and sport). So, I'm kind of with you on this one. Timing is a big component, but it pairs with technique (the concept of technique, rather than individual, discrete techniques). When a technique fails in application, it's usually either technical (positioning is off or some such) or timing (too early/late). I'm lumping "not available" (trying to force a technique in where it doesn't really apply) in with technical issues, though it could be its own third reason.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'd argue anything where you're going to do something to someone else requires some level of timing, unless you're going to overpower them by main force. If you come in for a single-leg, but miss the timing, you'll just run into his weight, or be too early and not be able to manipulate the leg.

    EDIT: To clarify, the timing in single-leg is how you get the leg. There's a much bigger window (arguably no timing issue) once you have it.
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Much of what is done in the ring to win is quite applicable in the street. There are differences, and reasons I prefer training for "street", but someone with MMA training is actually getting some good tools for self-defense.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    We are more aware of charlatans than we used to be (easier access to media). The teachers of old were not all magical geniuses (though there were surely some geniuses among them). We should reverence the knowledge they pass along, while knowing they were all fallible, and in some cases simply not as well informed as we are today.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I disagree almost entirely. All of my early self-defense usage came from sport Judo. And I never even competed - just trained for competition (it was what the instructor taught), with resistance.
     
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  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    You're using confirmation bias on this. I can find you examples of folks who trained for self-defense who were taken down by untrained folks, too. You're comparing a somewhat-trained single-discipline fighter to a much more extensively trained multi-discipline fighter (both of them you). Good training practices matter more than whether it's SD or sport. I'll go so far as to say many sport competitors are actually better trained for SD (because they train "live") than many SD folks. And I'm a SD folk, saying this.

    With that latter point you are correct, though I'll challenge your wording. Many people don't train as hard as was done in the past. Most of the folks I've trained with had jobs they couldn't afford to be away from for injuries. Many were desk jockeys, so weren't physically tough coming in, so chose softer training. However, don't forget that "properly" depends upon your goals. Most folks aren't looking to become dangerous fighting masters, so their training intensity may be entirely proper to their personal aims.
     
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  12. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I can't tell you how many times I've taken an elbow to the face or similar while during randori in Judo. Fat lips and bloody noses aren't exactly unheard of.

    What's your experience with Judo? I'm curious about how your perspective is formed.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  13. GreatUniter

    GreatUniter Yellow Belt

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    That's why I'm here and want to see other perspectives. I have met and friendly sparred with many so - called teachers of sports martial arts in my country, that's why I'm in doubt of their effectiveness. I'm aware of that that there is many real competitors with exceptional MA skills out there. Personally, I don't believe in sports martial arts because there are a lot of modifications (at least in my country), sets of rules and weight classes. That's why I take Kodokan judo as example because there are no weight classes that I'm aware of (done some research, feel free to prove me wrong).

    Don't get me wrong, I joined this forum to learn something from people that are dedicated to martial arts and to get off any bias that I have. My bias are not towards martial arts because I know that there are not bad martial arts, but bad martial artists and teachers and I don't like where modern martial art sports are going (like I said before, business).

    So, feel free to prove me wrong, I want to learn something new from more dedicated people here. I'm glad that there are people with vast experience in martial arts.
     
  14. GreatUniter

    GreatUniter Yellow Belt

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    I really don't have training experience in judo, because I have never trained it. What I did is, friendly sparring with people that train it for long time, without rules (with people that are heavier and stronger than me). I wanted to test my skills and principles that I have been taught against someone from different school of martial arts to see if they are working. What I saw was really poor performance from people that are even assistants to judo teachers here (still didn't have sparring with someone outside my country). That's why I want to practice against judo, bjj, jujutsu, aikido or real aikido, because they are similar with what I practice now: aikido. I learn and shape my thoughts by experience, and from what I saw in my life, sport's judo doesn't work on streets, but it doesn't mean that art is bad, but the practitioners and the way it's trained. There are guys that really want to learn martial arts, but lot of teachers don't know what they really teach (like I said, there are plenty of good teachers still around, but still hard to find). That's why I have bias for sports judo, but the main reasons are practitioners and modern teachers, not art itself (except if it's yellow bamboo, chi magic etc.).

    Like I said, I want to learn more about martial arts, that's why I'm here. There are things and thoughts that need to be reshaped. I'm glad if you can help me. :D
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    It depends what kind of sparring you do, and what their training is like. If someone trains exclusively for light-contact competition (tap-touch) and you engage them with hard contact, they likely won't do well. If they train exclusively for hard-contact sparring, they'll do well with anything that vaguely resembles their ruleset. If they train for light-contact competition, but use hard-contact sparring as part of their overall training, they'll do well with anything that vaguely resembles their ruleset. If you take someone who trains exclusively for striking (competition or SD) and go in with takedowns, they'll struggle unless they outclass you. My experience is that someone who trains for hard contact and trains with resistance will be a more formidable opponent in sparring with significant contact. That combination is more likely to exist in sport than in SD training in my experience. I know instructors in grappling-based SD programs who have never done strikes-based sparring, and even some who have never faced actual full resistance (a partner using their skills to try to defeat their techniques). I would expect a well-trained MMA amateur to do better in self-defense than those instructors.

    How people train is more important. The focus of the training (sport or SD) matters, as well, but it matters less than the use of good "live" (resisted) training methods.
     
  16. GreatUniter

    GreatUniter Yellow Belt

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    I like sparring differently (people are not always in mood for hard sparring). Light contact, hard contact, depends on what my sparring partner is asking. Never went above our deal at the time. And we did a lot of resistance (sometimes full, sometimes not) sparring. I'm especially glad when I train with resistance so as to see where I'm with my training, because there are techniques that won't work on some people. But it doesn't mean that if one technique doesn't work, that another won't. And yes, we did a lot of sparring outside the templates (example: mixed judo techniques with striking etc.). I want to upgrade my way of thinking outside what I do.

    And, thank you for your view on this matter. It's really an eye - opener.
     
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  17. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    OK

    That's one of the points of "sport"
     
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  18. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    Out of curiosity, what country do you live in? I've found that here (depending on the sport) most sport fighters are good at what they do if they compete, and able to transfer it to the street. It may be that in your area/country the level of skill overall isn't high, causing the differences in experience.
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    That's what I was trying to say. Old Chinese saying said, "After you have pick up and hold on your opponent's leading leg, if you still can't take him down, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself."

    After you have lifted your opponent up over your shoulder, whether you drop him right away, 1 second later, or 2 second later should not make much difference.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  20. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    If the fellow in the suit grabbed his knife, instead of his hat, and introduced it to your kidney or lung, I would consider that a difference. In fact, I would call it a significant difference.
     

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