Judo or Taekwondo for best self defense?

[drop bear]

And what's stopping him attacking you again once you let go of him

Self preservation hopefully.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Self preservation hopefully.

"Hopefully" is one of those correct answers I don't like. I doubt anyone does. But they're still correct.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And what's stopping him attacking you again once you let go of him

I choked someone from behind on the street in Hawaii. When that guy said, "Please don't kill me." I let go my choke. He ran away as fast as a rabbit.

 

[drop bear]

"Hopefully" is one of those correct answers I don't like. I doubt anyone does. But they're still correct.

There is a classic case of a guy getting powned and going for a double dip and getting powned worse.

But most of us are not monsters or idiots and sometimes it is worth the risk.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is a classic case of a guy getting powned and going for a double dip and getting powned worse.

But most of us are not monsters or idiots and sometimes it is worth the risk.

This clip shows if you can take your opponent down once, you can take him down again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This clip shows if you can take your opponent down once, you can take him down again.

Hopefully.

 

[Anarax]

Self defense can't always be about that, there will always be a bigger stronger guy who for all your striking will look at you and laugh. So it's not about throwing the guy down and letting go, trusting they will let you go. It's about not being trapped by pride and when you get that guy down having the self awareness use the opening you created and know it is "time to run away.". If that isn't an option, proper leverage overcomes strength. So you hold on, keeping them restrained, even if you can break/main them, until the boys in blue show up.

I somewhat agree and disagree with this. There is an entire spectrum of situations we can find ourselves in, from someone placing their hand on us to a fully committed attacker. There are also other factors such as where we are, when it happens and who(loved ones, friends, etc) is with us.

There have been numerous instances where the instigator was overwhelmed by the defender, defender backs off, instigator follows defender seeking revenge. Pride is a two way street, the instigator's pride is hurt and they want to try and harm you again to heal their wounded pride. It depends entirely on the situation at hand, we must assess and determine what is the appropriate amount of force. Unfortunately, this type of critical thinking is lacking in many martial arts schools today.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I somewhat agree and disagree with this. There is an entire spectrum of situations we can find ourselves in, from someone placing their hand on us to a fully committed attacker. There are also other factors such as where we are, when it happens and who(loved ones, friends, etc) is with us.

There have been numerous instances where the instigator was overwhelmed by the defender, defender backs off, instigator follows defender seeking revenge. Pride is a two way street, the instigator's pride is hurt and they want to try and harm you again to heal their wounded pride. It depends entirely on the situation at hand, we must assess and determine what is the appropriate amount of force. Unfortunately, this type of critical thinking is lacking in many martial arts schools today.

I think it can only really be accurately covered in vague terms. There are too many variations in situation, and too many unknowns.

 

[Juany118]

I think it can only really be accurately covered in vague terms. There are too many variations in situation, and too many unknowns.

Exactly. My main point was to explain how, imo, many people allow pride to get in the way of self defense. They think it's about "winning" when it's not. Self defense is about survival and survival has to be devoid of pride. It's about being, essentially, without expectation on the precise method that gets you to the end goal, which is to simply walk away with minimal injury.

 

[geezer]

Exactly. My main point was to explain how, imo, many people allow pride to get in the way of self defense. They think it's about "winning" when it's not. Self defense is about survival and survival has to be devoid of pride. It's about being, essentially, without expectation on the precise method that gets you to the end goal, which is to simply walk away with minimal injury.

That might work for Mr. Spock, but I've met few, if any humans who can fully eliminate pride, anger and fear from the self-defense equation. Training can definitely help, but it's a problem even among professionals. We may know better, but when stuff goes down we tend to act and react like the animals we are. Not like monsters, but like human animals.

 

[Juany118]

That might work for Mr. Spock, but I've met few, if any humans who can fully eliminate pride, anger and fear from the self-defense equation. Training can definitely help, but it's a problem even among professionals. We may know better, but when stuff goes down we tend to act and react like the animals we are. Not like monsters, but like human animals.

Oh anger and fear will always be there. You have to actively keep a lid on those with training, because that's all hormones. Pride I think is easier though because that is all "in your head" so to speak.

 

[GreatUniter]

If it's kodokan judo, then that's the real deal (with all the goshin jutsu stuff). If it's sport judo, then forget about self defense, taekwondo is better.

 

[drop bear]

If it's kodokan judo, then that's the real deal (with all the goshin jutsu stuff). If it's sport judo, then forget about self defense, taekwondo is better.

There is an interesting concept from a guy called kit dale where he suggests timing is the key rather than technique.

Now I don't agree with that to that extent but the ability to apply moves in real timing is absolutely vital.

And that is what sport does. It gives you the core elements of what happens in a fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

he suggests timing is the key rather than technique.

There are techniques that

- require timing (such as foot sweep, ...).
- does not require timing (such as single leg, bear hug, head lock, ...).

After you have obtained your opponent's leading leg in your arm, whether you want to take him down right at that moment, or 1 second later won't make that much difference.

 

[GreatUniter]

There is an interesting concept from a guy called kit dale where he suggests timing is the key rather than technique.

Now I don't agree with that to that extent but the ability to apply moves in real timing is absolutely vital.

And that is what sport does. It gives you the core elements of what happens in a fight.

I agree on that. Timing in general is vital for winning. But also it is true that the way you train a martial art is the way that you use it outside your gym/dojo. Combat sports are limited with sets of rules and we know that more and more "teachers" nowadays are sport oriented and the martial way is facing heavy loses. What you do in the ring to win, doesn't apply on the streets. And I'm sure You know that a street fight usually lasts mere seconds in general if we talk about pure fistfighting without verbal fights (and a ring fight lasts up to 3 minutes in general).

 

[drop bear]

I agree on that. Timing in general is vital for winning. But also it is true that the way you train a martial art is the way that you use it outside your gym/dojo. Combat sports are limited with sets of rules and we know that more and more "teachers" nowadays are sport oriented and the martial way is facing heavy loses. What you do in the ring to win, doesn't apply on the streets. And I'm sure You know that a street fight usually lasts mere seconds in general if we talk about pure fistfighting without verbal fights (and a ring fight lasts up to 3 minutes in general).

Exactly. Each ring fight is like a hundred street fights back to back. And you are forced to limit yourself in order to win it.

This forces you to develop the important elements of fighting. Rather than the less important.

People place so much emphasis on technique. Here is Mohammed Ali on the bag.

A boxing coach would tell you his technique is incorrect. But he managed to use that technique to defeat and incapacitate world class strikers.

There are so many important elements to winning fights that are often not adressed in martial arts. Martial means you have to fight people.

Here is Tony Danza incapacitating a guy using only punches through padded gloves in 40 odd seconds.

Imagine he was hitting the guy bare knuckle. Fight would have ended in 10. And again not won through technique in its classical sense.

 

[wab25]

There are techniques that

- require timing (such as foot sweep, ...).
- does not require timing (such as single leg, bear hug, head lock, ...).

After you have obtained your opponent's leading leg in your arm, whether you want to take him down right at that moment, or 1 second later won't make that much difference.

Since we are talking about self defense, I have to disagree here. How many times have you seen an MMA fighter have his leg wrapped up, then while the guy is trying to take him down, the first guy grabs the fences and prevents the takedown? Sure, he gets slapped by the ref, but the take down is lost. Had the guy not allowed a second or two, he may have completed the take down.

In self defense, we already talked about weapons of opportunity. If you give him that second... what can he grab? Is there a knife in his pocket that he can deploy, while you give him that second? If you dumped him right away, you may have a better shot at preventing him from deploying it. If you grab his leg and wait 1 second, his leg may become very slippery with your blood running all over it.

My point is that timing is more important out of the ring than it is in the ring.

 

[GreatUniter]

Exactly. Each ring fight is like a hundred street fights back to back. And you are forced to limit yourself in order to win it.

This forces you to develop the important elements of fighting. Rather than the less important.

People place so much emphasis on technique. Here is Mohammed Ali on the bag.

A boxing coach would tell you his technique is incorrect. But he managed to use that technique to defeat and incapacitate world class strikers.

There are so many important elements to winning fights that are often not adressed in martial arts. Martial means you have to fight people.

Here is Tony Danza incapacitating a guy using only punches through padded gloves in 40 odd seconds.

Imagine he was hitting the guy bare knuckle. Fight would have ended in 10. And again not won through technique in its classical sense.

Yes, but those two are old school masters in their own rights. Those days existed real masters of martial arts. Their training was different. They followed martial principles. Today we have McDojos everywhere, numbers of real masters are decreasing. There are people that actually believe in no - touch - knockdown - yellow - bamboo - chi - magic bs. Even if we are in development like human race. There are lot of quasi - instructors that when teach, they don't get out from a template and often don't go out from set of rules (exceptions still exist).

 

[GreatUniter]

Since we are talking about self defense, I have to disagree here. How many times have you seen an MMA fighter have his leg wrapped up, then while the guy is trying to take him down, the first guy grabs the fences and prevents the takedown? Sure, he gets slapped by the ref, but the take down is lost. Had the guy not allowed a second or two, he may have completed the take down.

In self defense, we already talked about weapons of opportunity. If you give him that second... what can he grab? Is there a knife in his pocket that he can deploy, while you give him that second? If you dumped him right away, you may have a better shot at preventing him from deploying it. If you grab his leg and wait 1 second, his leg may become very slippery with your blood running all over it.

My point is that timing is more important out of the ring than it is in the ring.

Absolutely right. When there is real, street scenario you use everything at your disposal if it means that you can save your life (or your loved ones). If you miss the chance, sometimes it can lead to unforgivable mistakes that can cost your life. That's why I think that combat sport martial arts cannot help you in real life situations against multiple attackers or street weapons if you don't train them right, outside of those set of rules or templates.

 

[JR 137]

If it's kodokan judo, then that's the real deal (with all the goshin jutsu stuff). If it's sport judo, then forget about self defense, taekwondo is better.

So a “sport” Judo throw than quickly transitions into a “sport” Judo choke only works in competition? Competitors will allow the throw and subsequent choke, whereas a street attacker won’t?

If anything it’s the other way around - a competitor has thrown that combo countless times in training and fine tuned it to avoid counters. And if his training partners are nice and don’t resist very much, his opponents surely will resist at 100%. And the competitor uses it against competitors he often doesn’t know and don’t know him instead of the same several dozen sparring partners at the dojo.

What’s so realistic about Judo? For one, the range they fight out of. Second: throws, chokes, and submissions don’t leave much to the imagination.

A judo competitor may have less available options than a “SD” judoka, but one could make the argument that the competitor focuses on less stuff, thereby fine tuning it more.

I’m not a judoka and even I know this.