judo for self defense

Discussion in 'Jujutsu / Judo' started by Manny, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    There is no doubt to me that judo can be an efective way to defende one self if need it on the streets (outside the dojo) however I wonder at what level (belt color) the senseis starts to teach self defense moves instead the sporting ones?

    As long as I know in judo the most important thing is to learn how to fall and this takes several months and then the student starts to learn some trowing but at what level the judo sensei starts to teach solid techs to use in a self defense escenario?

    Manny
     
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    In my experience few Judo instructors teach much beyond the sport, even though strictly speaking there are self-defense techniques in the classic Kodokan system.
     
  3. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The judo instructor that teaches at the club I'm familiar with doesn't actually start teaching 'self-defense' moves, or street applications of judo until shodan.
     
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  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When teacher starts to teach you how to use illegal moves. Also when you teacher starts to teach you how to execute a "bad throw".
     
  5. bluewaveschool

    bluewaveschool 2nd Black Belt

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    Illegal in the sense of against sporting rules?
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Such as how to:

    - hide a hay-maker in your head lock so you can knock your opponent 1/2 way out before your head lock.
    - pull your opponent's face into your elbow.
    - grab on your opponent's arm so you can hurt his wrist joint or elbow joint when you apply your throw.
    - bend your opponent's leg side way so you can hurt his knee joint.
    - ...
     
  7. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, only illegal for the sport, but a lot of judo players are only concerned with the sport aspect. Sort of the equivalent of throwing elbows if you get too close somehow in a tkd match..you'll get in trouble for doing it and it wont benefit your matches, so sport TKD instructors dont spend time on it. (This is only really true for judo, jujutsu doesn't have 'illegal moves' as far as I know, would kind of be the equivalent of self-defense TKD rather than Kukkiwon TKD).
     
  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The day when a "sport" coach starts to teach any anti-terrorism school, he will find out that his students will not be satisfied with just "sport", he will be forced to change. Until then some coaches my feel too comfortable in his "sport" zone. If you go to Judo forum and talk about "combat", you will be treated as a troll.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  9. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

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    I teach MuSool Hapkido which is pure self-defense but I hired a Judo Instructor to teach at my Dojang (Dojo). He is teaching a lot of teens and I've heard him tell them several times; "on the mat you, do it this away" and "on the street, it's done like this".

    I am not sure if he is the exception to the rule because he is teaching a sport at a self-defense school or if that is the way he teaches.

    We also teach Taekwondo at the Dojang. There is a sport TKD team where they work on ring techniques, but the regular traditional Taekwondo classe train more of a street applicable fighting system. At the end of the day, "martial" implies war. I want my students to be able to safely defend themselves.

    The sport aspect is good, but if all you train for is sport, the student is developing bad habits.
     
  10. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    As always, it depends. There are some Judo schools that teach the full spectrum including Judo's self-defense kata. Others, only concentrate on the sport side of things. Talk to the instructor about what you want and see if they can help you bridge that gap between sport and self-defense.
     
  11. Isaiah90

    Isaiah90 Orange Belt

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    Judo is not effective for self defense for these reasons. Check my videos.

    Little to no striking - The problem with Judo is there's little to no striking especially if you're grappling with someone. A real attack will catch a Judoka off guard. There's been several cases of Judokas who got beat up by robbers before they robbed them.



    Weapons - Judokas lack training to deal with weapons. If they do, it's unrealistic for self defense. They think a knifeman is going to lunge in with one stab or a gunman is just going to point a gun and not shoot. Completely unrealistic. Most Judokas were stabbed or shot to death. One Judoka, in particular, got sprayed with toxic chemicals then had his fingers chopped off one by one. He was beaten to death with a hammer.



    Multiple attackers - No training in multiple attackers in Judo either. You'd get jumped easily when you try to grapple with one.

    For these reasons, Judo will get you beaten or killed on the streets.
     
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  12. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Yet more comedy gold.

    And to add to the hilarity, the most recent reply before yours was posted around the time you (sometimes) claim to have started training.
     
  13. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    I wish I could have a "Disagree" button for each video. Actually, I want a "Disagree" button for each scenario analyzed, within each video.

    As for the first video... the guy analyzing, shows that he has zero understanding of how traditional arts (karate and TKD) train. Just because all karate guys don't win all fights, is not proof that karate is not effective. Its not hard to look through youtube to find examples of karate guys and TKD guys successfully defending themselves.

    I find it especially amusing that the "Judo Fails" he shows, are successful Judo throws, applied to KO one guy, and to effectively take down and pin the other guy. I am not sure that the guy doing the analyzing in the Judo video, understands what the word "fail" means. One move ending a fight or altercation, decisively, is not a fail. Out of all the altercations shown, the Judo guys ended things the quickest and most decisively.
     
  14. Isaiah90

    Isaiah90 Orange Belt

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    lol i'm not talking about fights. I'm talking about real life attacks. Most don't make it.

    As for the Judo fails, you didn't pay attention to what i said in the video.
     
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  15. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    I did pay attention. I disagreed with everything you said in them.

    Lets start with your first Judo Fail... the one where the gal, KOed the guy with a throw.

    1. You said she didn't try de-escalating verbally. Why did people turn their cameras on in time to film the physical part? They overheard or saw something developing. From their actions at the start, they were definitely being verbal with each other. She may have failed de-escalating verbally... but its not always possible to do. Besides, you would not have picked a clip where it was successful.

    2. You froze the clip while she was off balancing the guy. You said she left herself wide open to an attack, if this were a multiple attacker situation. Well, if you are going to pause video, then imagine you could magically make more bad guys appear, where you wanted them to attack her... then sure. But, there does not exist any technique that is immune to that. Even just standing the best guard you know of... I'll pause the video, and point to where the guy could be standing right behind you, punching the back of your head. Whats more important is that she was not in a multiple attacker situation, which she seemed to understand. What you are calling a failure of the technique, I am calling an effective entrance to her technique. I define it as successful because she KOed the guy with that technique, that she started with that entrance.

    3. You paused the video again when she had the guy loaded and was starting the throw. You said that if he had reacted, he could have done anything, because he had her back. First off, you are showing that you have never been thrown like that by anyone that knew what they were doing. It happens much faster when you don't pause the video. When you are far enough off balance for that throw to work, like it did, you can generate very little power as your structure is compromised and you cannot root. From that point, there are a few things you can do, but most of them involve taking the fall anyway. That entrance you didn't like, got her in deep enough that the throw was going to happen no matter what he did. Further, he did react... he was trying to figure out how this little girl was hitting him with the earth.

    4. You then pointed out the big problem, had she not knocked the guy out, he could have got back up and continued to attack her. First, thats true of any technique, from any art. If you don't cause the other guy to be unconscious, he might try to attack you again. With a throw like that, especially outside the ring... you have to worry about more than just a KO from hitting your head. You could also injure your neck, back, shoulder, clavical, knees, ankles, elbows... the list goes on. Many of those injuries will end the fight, even with out the KO. Most of them will limit what he can do, should he continue to attack.

    Here is what you missed. You are very concerned with multiple attackers. First off, she was aware that she only had one attacker for the moment. Also, once she finished the throw, she popped right back up to her feet and was mobile again, able to run or fight the next guy.

    If she were in a multiple attacker situation, lets go to point 2, where you showed that she was vulnerable from behind. Her entrance, would have moved her away from the guy behind her. Yes, he could have followed her... but then her throw would have thrown that guy into the second guy behind her. Even if she missed, the second guy now has to find a way around the guy KOed on the ground in front of him, to get to her. Remember, she was right back to her feet. She now has time to run, throw a 3rd guy or grab a weapon of opportunity. If she didn't KO the guy, now the second guy, has to find a way around the first guy, who is also trying to get back up... this may buy her even more time to run.

    When dealing with multiple attackers... you need to stay mobile and find ways to reduce the number of people you are fighting. With this single move, she would have gotten herself outside the center of attackers, KOed one guy reducing the number of attackers and put a barrier between her and the other attackers. That very effective for one move.

    What if he had a weapon? Well, he didn't have it out yet. She executed one move, that dumped the guy on his head with the possibility of KO, head injury, neck injury, back injury, shoulder injury, arm injury, wrist injury.... All of which will slow him down and or prevent him from using a weapon. Further, she was able to gain her feet again much quicker than the guy she threw. This gives her a head start to run away while he is getting his weapon.

    In all cases, what she did proved highly effective. All the problems you have with her technique are problems with all techniques. We don't yet have techniques that can deal with time stopping so that more attackers can magically appear. The issues you have are solved by being aware of your environment. This gal demonstrated that she was aware and even after throwing the guy, popping back up to be ready for the next attacker or the guy to try to continue.

    To sum up, I disagree completely with your analysis and your conclusions.
     
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  16. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    There wouldn't have been a clip to pick, nobody films a swift de-escalation. There's not time, and even there was it'd be far too dull to publish.
     
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  17. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    So now an attack isn't a fight. Ok another point learned lol
     
  18. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Actually, this is one thing I'd agree with.

    You attack your lunch, you attack a heavy bag, you attack a country if you invade.

    It's only a fight if anything happens in return.

    So, in the case of an attack on the OP, he's correct, it'll never be a fight.
     
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  19. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I didn’t watch your video, but I have a question, in two parts...

    Did the judoka walk away from the altercation with her life and health intact? If so, how was it a fail?

    Your analysis videos are far too long and have too much senseless rambling for me to sit through them. I need the short version here.
     
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  20. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    It took me a few reads to get the punchline. I’m a little slow I guess.
     
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