JRE - Striking and BJJ

[Hanzou]

But that wasn't what I said at all, so you disagreed for the sake of it.

I said "getting a choke", which means going from not touching them to having your limb around their neck.

Saying that you are almost certain to be able to apply a choke to someone who doesn't want to play the grappling game is pure fantasy.

I'm sure plenty of people didn't want to play the "grappling game". That didnt stop them from getting choked.

 

[Headhunter]

Is this still going? Come on guys don't even bother with Hanzou he's obviously just a Bjj fanboy who thinks if it doesn't happen in a cage or a ring then it doesn't work. Let's not waste anymore time on this

 

[pdg]

Is this still going? Come on guys don't even bother with Hanzou he's obviously just a Bjj fanboy who thinks if it doesn't happen in a cage or a ring then it doesn't work. Let's not waste anymore time on this

I'm still having fun though.

I can just imagine him sitting at his keyboard, getting all huffy and thinking "why don't these people see I'm like a superhero with my extreme grappling prowess???"

 

[Hanzou]

I'm still having fun though.

I can just imagine him sitting at his keyboard, getting all huffy and thinking "why don't these people see I'm like a superhero with my extreme grappling prowess???"

Where did I ever imply that I'm some grappling god?

Unlike you I don't believe I can perform instant KOs on demand.

 

[pdg]

Just for clarity - I have nothing but respect for grapplers and their arts who don't constantly try to berate anything they don't/can't do.

 

[pdg]

Where did I ever imply that I'm some grappling god?

Unlike you I don't believe I can perform instant KOs on demand.

I never said that. Quote it.

But you seem to think you can perform 5-6 second KOs on demand.

 

[Buka]

I'm kind of enjoying all the back and forth. And I hope it stays civil.

As for Hanzou geting huffy, heck, he hasn't even had his hair ruffled.

 

[Hanzou]

I never said that. Quote it.

I can do a kick to an opponent's leg hard enough to bend their knee backwards in well under a second, and I don't have to lay on the floor (in all that glass) to do it.

Go on, say I'm wrong.

Oh, also...

You have "my friend" in a standing guillotine, that means both your hands are tied up and your head is completely exposed.

That means I can kick you in the side of the head, right behind your ear.

That's going to take a whole lot less than 5-10 seconds before you're unconscious and then you're coming after nobody.

We good?

But you seem to think you can perform 5-6 second KOs on demand.

Yeah, they're called chokes.

 

[pdg]

We good?

Not really, I was highlighting how you had provided a perfect opening which increases my chances of success, and that I have the capability - I didn't once say it was an on demand deal.

Yeah, they're called chokes.

Which entirely rely on you being able to apply said choke.

Which is far from a certainty.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really, I was highlighting how you had provided a perfect opening which increases my chances of success, and that I have the capability - I didn't once say it was an on demand deal.

You implied that it was. I'm happy to see you come back down to reality.

Which entirely rely on you being able to apply said choke.

Which is far from a certainty.

Yet is heavily trained against multiple training partners of varying sizes and strength at full speed and power to increase the likelihood of being able to apply said choke.

 

[pdg]

Yet is heavily trained against multiple training partners of varying sizes and strength at full speed and power to increase the likelihood of being able to apply said choke.

Yes, trained within the grappling or MMA ruleset.

To borrow your attitude to this, it could be said that no-touch knockout techniques are heavily trained against multiple partners of all sizes and that they always work in the demonstrations.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, trained within the grappling or MMA ruleset.

And within the context of self defense.

To borrow your attitude to this, it could be said that no-touch knockout techniques are heavily trained against multiple partners of all sizes and that they always work in the demonstrations.

Except there's never been a case of someone being able to apply no-touch knockout techniques outside of their personal dojo with unwilling partners. Incalculable people have been choked out in various arenas, on the streets, in houses, etc. and people trained in such techniques have been able to do it better than anyone else.

Your comparison is laughable.

 

[pdg]

And within the context of self defense.

Well, that'll be within the context of your instructor's interpretation of what they consider self defence.

Except there's never been a case of someone being able to apply no-touch knockout techniques outside of their personal dojo with unwilling partners.

And how many truly unwilling partners have you choked out outside of your training arena?

Incalculable people have been choked out in various arenas, on the streets, in houses, etc. and people trained in such techniques have been able to do it better than anyone else.

And so I presume that means you think nobody has ever been knocked out by a punch or kick, and that training in such techniques makes no difference to the efficacy of said techniques, because they don't work anyway?

 

[Hanzou]

Well, that'll be within the context of your instructor's interpretation of what they consider self defence.

Believe it or not, my instructor isn't the only person who believes that chokes are effective for self defense.

And how many truly unwilling partners have you choked out outside of your training arena?

4. Two in a self defense situation. Two in competition (sorry to say).

And so I presume that means you think nobody has ever been knocked out by a punch or kick, and that training in such techniques makes no difference to the efficacy of said techniques, because they don't work anyway?

I have no idea how you reached that presumption, but the answer to that question is no.

 

[pdg]

Believe it or not, my instructor isn't the only person who believes that chokes are effective for self defense.

I believe he's not the only one.

And shockingly, I think he's right if the situation supports it.

But if the situation doesn't support it (weapons possibly present, backup possibly present) then I think it's a very bad idea to fully occupy both your arms for such a long time.

There was a fad a short while back of kids knocking out random people with a single sucker punch - they'd simply walk up to someone and floor them with a single punch to the side/back of the head while their mates video it and stick it on YouTube for a laugh. These were untrained people doing the punching.

So you get someone in a standing guillotine, as was previously stated you've got a bad lever so a shove on their behind clears access and you have a totally open head - if an untrained kid can knock someone out with a single punch why would a trained striker fail to do the same to you?

A kick is usually harder than a punch - what makes you think a person sufficiently trained to kick accurately couldn't take you out?

Or if the person is alone, you manage to get them in a SG, but they have a gravity knife tucked in their belt and two free arms. If it takes 5-6 seconds for them to pass out, that's at least 3 seconds of easily available time to grab it, flick out the blade and gutstab you 10 times.

 

[Hanzou]

I believe he's not the only one.

And shockingly, I think he's right if the situation supports it.

But if the situation doesn't support it (weapons possibly present, backup possibly present) then I think it's a very bad idea to fully occupy both your arms for such a long time.

There was a fad a short while back of kids knocking out random people with a single sucker punch - they'd simply walk up to someone and floor them with a single punch to the side/back of the head while their mates video it and stick it on YouTube for a laugh. These were untrained people doing the punching.

So you get someone in a standing guillotine, as was previously stated you've got a bad lever so a shove on their behind clears access and you have a totally open head - if an untrained kid can knock someone out with a single punch why would a trained striker fail to do the same to you?

A kick is usually harder than a punch - what makes you think a person sufficiently trained to kick accurately couldn't take you out?

You're assuming quite a few things here. You're assuming the untrained kid knows to shove their friend's behind to get to me. You're also assuming that I'm just standing there instead of moving.

Or if the person is alone, you manage to get them in a SG, but they have a gravity knife tucked in their belt and two free arms. If it takes 5-6 seconds for them to pass out, that's at least 3 seconds of easily available time to grab it, flick out the blade and gutstab you 10 times.

They have one free arm. You're also assuming that the person getting choked has the presence of mind to start reaching around for a knife (assuming he can reach it) instead of panicking and trying to escape the choke. You're also assuming that I don't notice this as I have control over the majority of his upper body (or that I didn't notice he had a knife in his belt before all this began).

 

[pdg]

You're assuming quite a few things here. You're assuming the untrained kid knows to shove their friend's behind to get to me. You're also assuming that I'm just standing there instead of moving.

No, I'm assuming that a trained striker knows to shove his friend aside to make clearance, and that they're experienced with moving targets (i.e. from sparring).

The untrained kid was the example that shows a single strike knockout isn't actually that difficult in reality.

I suggest you read it again.

I've pretty much said it before, but I'll say it again - a well trained striker is going to be having a challenge on his hands against a well trained grappler (or another well trained striker) and vice versa.

But, a well trained striker is going to have a far easier time against a well trained grappler if said grappler is hampered by already being engaged.

 

[pdg]

They have one free arm

Who has one free arm?

The choker has one arm around the chokee's neck, and the other arm to lock it in.

So, both arms engaged.

The chokee has both arms free.

And yes, it relies on retaining presence of mind to do anything about it, but that's hardly impossible.


That doesn't get away from the fact that you still have to get it engaged and locked in the first place.

 

[Hanzou]

Who has one free arm?

The choker has one arm around the chokee's neck, and the other arm to lock it in.

So, both arms engaged.

The chokee has both arms free.

And yes, it relies on retaining presence of mind to do anything about it, but that's hardly impossible.


That doesn't get away from the fact that you still have to get it engaged and locked in the first place.

See the video again, the chokee has one free arm.

Some call it the arm-in Guillotine. For my gym it was interchangeable, and in self defense, you always went for arm-in.

Anyways, if I'm stuck in the guillotine and he is going for a knife and I can't let go, best bet is to fall back into closed guard while maintaining the guillotine. That will close the space to where he can't reach for knife (also has a chance to face plant my assailant into the concrete) and allow me to finish the choke.

 

[_Simon_]

Probably. We just don't have any Kata. There are some exceptions, though. We used to compete a lot. Some of the kids wanted to compete in Kata as well as fighting. So we'd make up a Kata for the kid to do in competition. But it would belong to that kid only. He could practice it in the dojo AFTER class.

If I had to do it over, though, I think I'd make sanchin kata part of our system. I always like the dynamic tension component of it.

I realize that all this might sound sacrilegious to Karate purists, but I don't think it would be if you knew us. A lot of my friends and acquaintances are Traditional Martial Artists, they never cared. They still don't.

Ah wow didn't know that Buka! I reckon you'd love kata ... and ahhh doing kata at sunrise on those lovely beaches in Hawaii..... that's spinetingling stuff....