JKD Leg Obstruction Question

[mook jong man]

See that seems kind of strange. OK you pad up get your target right. But approximating the kick say during sparring should be fine.it is still going to stop the leg and do the job it is supposed to do. Where a kick to nothing would not achieve that and you get unrealistic feedback.

Same way I could front kick people in the face. But I drop the kick because eating a heel with you nose sucks more than a person should have to put up with.

Unless he starts kicking me in the knee or something.

Even with that video of master Wong he is not chopping guys knees out.

Well it's just like in chi sau sparring I don't punch my partner in the jaw , I pull the strike back.
In a rapid striking art like Wing Chun you have to develop control , otherwise you will quickly run out of partners.
The range is not messed up with the kick in the non contact version because we barely extend the heel , the leg just comes up from the ground in the same angle as what the legs are normally when in the stance.
In the contact version we just release it and expand the angle.

In regards to the precise targeting of the kick and why it is important , think of somebody in a fighting stance , what is usually the first part of the body that is presented to you as they advance towards you.
The knee and shin are usually the closest targets right , which ties in with the Wing Chun principles of directness , and economy of movement.

The second reason is that targeting the knee/shin keeps the opponent just out of his punching range , but also still allows our arms to have tactile contact with his arms so that we can monitor him and feel what his next move will be and probably start trapping.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No we always train to target the correct area , the knee or shin.

I don't like shin kick that much. If my opponent bends his knee and pull his foot back (or keep foot on the ground and just moves his knee joint forward), my shin kick will slide down to the ground. If I kick right on his knee joint, his knee bending won't be able to help him to escape my kick.

The "knee joint kick" for me can achieve the following purposes:

- If I don't kick my opponent, he will kick me. Instead of for him to kick me, it's better for me to kick him (put my opponent in defense mode).
- When my foot touch my opponent's leading leg joint, I have established a "leg bridge". During that moment, I know exactly that his leading leg (along with his back leg) won't have an threaten to me.
- My kick is just a set up as part of my entering footwork. Depending on where my opponent may re-adjust his leading foot position during that kick, I'll land my kicking leg at the spot that I want.

My intention is not trying to break my opponent's knee joint.

 

[drop bear]

I don't like shin kick that much. If my opponent bends his knee and pull his foot back (or keep foot on the ground and just moves his knee joint forward), my shin kick will slide down to the ground. If I kick right on his knee joint, his knee bending won't be able to help him to escape my kick.

The "knee joint kick" for me can achieve the following purposes:

- If I don't kick my opponent, he will kick me. Instead of for him to kick me, it's better for me to kick him (put my opponent in defense mode).
- When my foot touch my opponent's leading leg joint, I have established a "leg bridge". During that moment, I know exactly that his leading leg (along with his back leg) won't have an threaten to me.
- My kick is just a set up as part of my entering footwork. Depending on where my opponent may re-adjust his leading foot position during that kick, I'll land my kicking leg at the spot that I want.

My intention is not trying to break my opponent's knee joint.

But ultimately it wants to be hard enough that they are going to react to it. Otherwise you are on one leg as they start throwing shots.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But ultimately it wants to be hard enough that they are going to react to it. Otherwise you are on one leg as they start throwing shots.

It's the angle and the push force after the contact. You try to use the ball of your foot to "push" on your opponent's knee joint to make his leg from bending to straight. In order words, you don't apply force in the initial process of your kick. You only apply force when your foot can contact your opponent's knee joint. During that contact moment, you put your weight behind your kick to add force into it. In order to do so, your body should have a strong structure to support your kick. Otherwise, your opponent's forward momentum may push you back.

Your kicking intention start from the "contact" and not start from your raising leg. This way whether you may miss your kick or not, it won't affect your own balance.

 

[mook jong man]

But ultimately it wants to be hard enough that they are going to react to it. Otherwise you are on one leg as they start throwing shots.

Well that's it , part of it is the distraction value.
For the split second you are thinking about the pain in your leg , you won't be thinking about the punches that will be rapidly following it.
Bloody excruciating pain it is too , a bit like walking into the edge of a heavy coffee table in the dark.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well that's it , part of it is the distraction value.
For the split second you are thinking about the pain in your leg , you won't be thinking about the punches that will be rapidly following it.
Bloody excruciating pain it is too , a bit like walking into the edge of a heavy coffee table in the dark.

This is why you want to kick on his knee joint. When you kick on his leg, it can only cause pain. When you kick on the knee joint, your opponent may concern about serious injury. That extra fear will make your kick to work much better. It's like you may not care about a punch toward your chest. But you definitely will care bout a punch that coming toward your face.

 

[mook jong man]

This is why you want to kick on his knee joint. When you kick on his leg, it can only cause pain. When you kick on the knee joint, your opponent may concern about serious injury. That extra fear will make your kick to work much better. It's like you may not care about a punch toward your chest. But you definitely will care bout a punch that coming toward your face.

There are too many variables at play to be that precise in targeting only the knee cap in my opinion.
Depends on the range , at close range it is easier to attack the shin , not to mention you will probably be also dealing with arms at the same time.
Legs are highly mobile and it takes quite a bit of reflex training to predict which leg they will try and step in on , if you get the knee cap great , but if you don't the shin is fine.
Just as long as you remember to use your kick to bridge the gap and move into punching range , not just stay in the one spot and retract the kick.

Use the forward momentum generated by your kick to propel your body mass forward and increase the power of your punching.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are too many variables at play to be that precise in targeting only the knee cap in my opinion.
Depends on the range , at close range it is easier to attack the shin , not to mention you will probably be also dealing with arms at the same time.
Legs are highly mobile and it takes quite a bit of reflex training to predict which leg they will try and step in on , if you get the knee cap great , but if you don't the shin is fine.
Just as long as you remember to use your kick to bridge the gap and move into punching range , not just stay in the one spot and retract the kick.

Use the forward momentum generated by your kick to propel your body mass forward and increase the power of your punching.

Think the area of the knee cap, a little above a little below, work are well as a direct hit, shin is ok too. The thigh is a disruptor to stop the other guys forward momentum or a kick, not necessarily the best target for a kick but whatever works at the time. And you are not necessarily using your kick to bridge the gap and move into punching range.... could be qinna, could be palm strike, could be kao, could be Zhou. It does not have to be a punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And you are not necessarily using your kick to bridge the gap and move into punching range.... could be qinna, could be palm strike, could be kao, could be Zhou. It does not have to be a punch.

But from a WC point of view, the only thing besides kicks is punches. IMO, that kind of view is "incomplete". In another forum, I tried to stay away from a 100% WC discussion. In any 100% pure WC thread, if you address any issue outside of kicking and punching (such as qinna, kao, zhou, arm drag, single leg, ...), you may upset someone big time. Since this is a JKD thread, it may be different.

 

[mook jong man]

But from a WC point of view, the only thing besides kicks is punches. IMO, that kind of view is "incomplete". In another forum, I tried to stay away from a 100% WC discussion. In any 100% pure WC thread, if you address any issue outside of kicking and punching (such as qinna, kao, zhou, arm drag, single leg, ...), you may upset someone big time. Since this is a JKD thread, it may be different.

Your joking aren't you , there are various types of palm strikes , forearm strikes , elbow strikes , knee strikes , sweeps , leg locking , wrist latching , neck latching and much more.
If you believe there is only punching and kicking in Wing Chun , then you would be very much mistaken.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Your joking aren't you , there are various types of palm strikes , forearm strikes , elbow strikes , knee strikes , sweeps , leg locking , wrist latching , neck latching and much more.
If you believe there is only punching and kicking in Wing Chun , then you would be very much mistaken.

You may have better "open mind" than most of the WC guys that I know. In another forum which almost turns into a WC forum because those WC guys won't join in any general discussion. They will also ignore posts that come from both people who doesn't train WC and those who trains WC but also cross train other systems. In that forum, all they care is "pure WC" and nothing else.

I have cross trained WC from one of Yeh Men students Jimmy Kao since 1973 (40 years ago). Since I cross trained, I would never be accepted as a WC guys in that forum.

 

[drop bear]

Well that's it , part of it is the distraction value.
For the split second you are thinking about the pain in your leg , you won't be thinking about the punches that will be rapidly following it.
Bloody excruciating pain it is too , a bit like walking into the edge of a heavy coffee table in the dark.

I kick on the thigh which still hurts and can break their posture. And thigh kicks are good for people makes them tougher.

 

[drop bear]

It's the angle and the push force after the contact. You try to use the ball of your foot to "push" on your opponent's knee joint to make his leg from bending to straight. In order words, you don't apply force in the initial process of your kick. You only apply force when your foot can contact your opponent's knee joint. During that contact moment, you put your weight behind your kick to add force into it. In order to do so, your body should have a strong structure to support your kick. Otherwise, your opponent's forward momentum may push you back.

Your kicking intention start from the "contact" and not start from your raising leg. This way whether you may miss your kick or not, it won't affect your own balance.

Similar in concept to a teep.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLoKfJANIo

It is not a great vid but the only one I can find where they target the leg.

 

[mook jong man]

I kick on the thigh which still hurts and can break their posture. And thigh kicks are good for people makes them tougher.

Totally agree mate.
In Wing Chun we have close range version of a Thai leg kick , called a hook kick.
Because it is in very close range it is used as a "finisher" , so typically a few chain punches to the head with a hook kick tacked on the end.

 

[mook jong man]

You may have better "open mind" than most of the WC guys that I know. In another forum which almost turns into a WC forum because those WC guys won't join in any general discussion. They will also ignore posts that come from both people who doesn't train WC and those who trains WC but also cross train other systems. In that forum, all they care is "pure WC" and nothing else.

I have cross trained WC from one of Yeh Men students Jimmy Kao since 1973 (40 years ago). Since I cross trained, I would never be accepted as a WC guys in that forum.

Well those dudes are wankers then aren't they.
Everybody has something to contribute.
Maybe it's better if you give them all a big miss and just converse with the intelligent individuals that are in abundance on these forums.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Any reason why some of you would choose the thigh kick over the structural integrity of the knee?

 

[mook jong man]

Any reason why some of you would choose the thigh kick over the structural integrity of the knee?

Can only speak for my lineage of Wing Chun , but with us it is a range thing.
So the range actually dictates which kick you use , at close range it is hard to generate the power for the low heel kick because the knee has to be turned out too far.
It is more natural and can generate more power to pivot and slam the blade of the shin into the opponents thigh at this close range.

It doesn't have to be a case of one or the other either , you can do a low heel kick from slightly further range and kick the knee , then step down and with your other leg hook kick his thigh.
We call this chain kicking.

 

[drop bear]

Any reason why some of you would choose the thigh kick over the structural integrity of the knee?

I can hit it in sparring and so have a better idea of what it is going to do. It can be drilled in as muscle memory. Worse comes to worse I fire the kick without thinking it will still be a real shot. If I want to make the choice to go for the knee I can and have at least been drilling that shot into a target within the confusion of sparring.

Otherwise gbh will get you a couple of years in prison here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any reason why some of you would choose the thigh kick over the structural integrity of the knee?

I always like to use knee kick as my 1st attack.

 

[drop bear]

I always like to use knee kick as my 1st attack.

I would have said that was to the thigh by the way. Though they did get low there at one stage.