James Mitose

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by James Kovacich, Sep 9, 2003.

  1. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    This is a post from a forum that I like to visit. Its interesting and I'm going to post the links to the complete discussions.
    :asian:

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Re:Solving a Mitose Mystery (?)

    As many of you know, I have been doing a pretty comprehensive background check on the history of James M. Mitose and his contributions to our Kempo/Kajukenbo systems. I have been trying to be totally objective and I was never, originally, a Mitose detractor. I became disenchanted with the Mitose history when it just wouldn't hold up to scutiny, not in the least bit. In my quest, I have found some answers. Nothing will ever be totally clear and objective when it comes to the history of any martial art but what I am looking for is some factual evidence, some circumstantial evidence, a little logic and a basic framework of the man's legacy that makes sense. I have had my ups and down on it and my investigation is still not complete but here is what I feel is reasonable so far:

    Let's start with Jinshi Eison, fact or fiction? Well, yes and no. Don't get me wrong I have a definite answer on that but it has a little explaining. Jinshi Eison lived in just the right time period we are looking at, circa. 1200. He studied in China, his Buddhist name was Kosho Bosatsu. So, it looks legit, right? Wrong. The Kanji used for Kosho in this case did not mean 'old pine tree'. It's like the kanji used for kara in karate. It can mean China (Tang) or empty. Eison's life was extremely well documented and nothing lined up and matched.

    However, according to Mitose, Kosho ryu is a sect of Zen Buddhism based on the Rinzai Zen which was introduced into Japan in 1191 by the priest Eisai. Mitose considered Eisai, and for that matter Rinzai (lin chi) and Daruma himself as being his ancestors. This is something he prided himself on. Jinshi Eisan was a misinterpretation of Mitose's words (his English was poor). 1191 was when the religious Rinzai sect (lin chi) Kosho Shorei Ryu was founded. The martial art, Kosho Ryu wasn't developed until about 350 years later, around 1560. The Tracy's begin their lineage (which I will get to shortly) at 1232 AD with Zenko Yoshida. Not only is that the wrong clan but you couldn't possibly have 21 descendants to Mitose in that time period. Martial art ryus weren't developed that early on, those were the religious rinzai sects that started around circa.1200, the martial art came much later. They're about 350 years off!

    The Yoshida lineage leads to dead ends and where did Kosho come from? Mitose had three grandfathers. Records provided to Shihan Michael Brown, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai historian, shows three families from Japan. 1) the Mitose family (his father's side), 2) the Yoshida family (his mother's biological father), and the Kosho family (his mother's biological mother). Mitose's maternal grandparents were not married. His mother was raised by her biological father (Mr. Yoshida) until she was 17 years old, then she was adopted by her biological mother who had married into the Kosho family. Besides the obvious connection with the name Kosho, this was the only grandfather alive when Mitose arrived in Japan in October of 1920.

    James Mitose's maternal grandparents were Yoshida Sakuhei (the father of Mitose Kyoka).
    Kosho Toju (the mother of Mitose Kiyoka). Mitose's grandmother was not the wife of Mr. Yoshida. Kiyoka was the result of an affair. This is in the family record.

    The Tracy Yoshida lineage to Kosho ryu has no merit. They do not go back to the family art of Kosho. Thje Kosho art goes back 21 generations. Mitose's grandfather that he learned the family art from was Kosho Kyohei. This is recorded in the family records although there is no written proof that he trained at the Shaka In Temple as of yet and may never be. There are records there mentioning the term Kosho ryu. A local historian, whom I do not have his name as of this posting, stated martial arts was being practiced there up until just before WW2. The Tracy's are barking up the wrong tree, lineage tree that is! They traced the wrong grandfather, Yoshida Sakuhei. He wasn't even alive when Mitose was 4 years old.

    Shaka In temple. Kosho monks and martial arts: truth or fiction? Documents provided and further research to confirm this on the internet into historical records shows that in October of 1588 the warrior monks of Shaka In clashed with the forces of Konishi Yukinaga. The battlefield is perserved to this day.

    I gratefully acknowledge the assistance of Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai for his tireless and unselfish efforts in researching this' tangled web'. All that I have learned in this post came from Shihan Brown's research and I take no credit for it other than my continuing efforts in a search for the truth on this enigma. Respectfully, Shihan xxxxxxxxx



    http://rpoelking.4dwebhosting.com/c...hp?board=3;action=display;threadid=24;start=0


    http://rpoelking.4dwebhosting.com/c...p?board=6;action=display;threadid=108;start=0

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     
  2. Kempojujutsu

    Kempojujutsu Master Black Belt

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    Akja,

    I have heard Mitose, uncle was Chokki Motobu. Is he related and is it on his mother side of the family?
    Bob:asian:
     
  3. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    I'm definately not the one to ask but those links that I posted has a lot of knowlegeble people who either go back to "that era"
    in Hawaii or are students of those who were.

    A lot of good reading there. Personally, I think IF theres a relation it was from a "step" or "in law" type of family connection. But I think that most evidence says no relation.

    But if there really is some records in Japan about Mitose and his family I think that the MA community deserves to hear it. Also I thought really interesting that those who new James that they said he had a "thick" Japanese accent and was hard to understand. That would almost "verify" that he grow up in Japan because the Japanese that grew up in Hawaii spoke that "pigdin"
    broken English that is typical of Hawaii.

    My only connection to all this is that my first art and most of my first 5 years in the arts back in the '70's was in Kajukenbo. Those were my "formulative" years as a teenager and Kajukenbo will always be in my heart. Besides when I run into people I use to compete with back then, the ones that stayed with it are all very hifg ranking now.

    I do find it very interesting information considering all the "negativity" on the issue. Everone "disproves" to much and nobody Tries to "prove" anything.

    :asian:
     
  4. chisaotiger

    chisaotiger White Belt

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    Couldn't all answers be found with Nimr Hassan/Terry Lee? He is the student of Mitose that may or may not have murdered Mr. Namimatsu.
    As I understand he has been out of jail for a long time and can be found in Philidelphia PA at:
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo Association of Philadelphia[/FONT]


    Philadelphia, PA 19121
    USA[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Phone Numbers:
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Phone: (215) 927-9562 or (215) 232-0356[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Fax: [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]E-mail Address:[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]info@kogahakempo.com[/FONT]
    [/FONT]


    I think he has all the answers if he will ever talk.
     
  5. dmackay

    dmackay White Belt

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    Hmmm..........let me guess.........you are a student of Terry Lee?



    I wouldn't trust the man
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Is this going to be a five minute argument or the full half hour? Just need to know whether to get the popcorn for a civilised discussion or whether it's going to be one of those nasty ones that will end up being closed. :)

    Just a not so subtle hint chaps on posting on a six year old thread.
     
  7. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Can I opt for the 'Getting Hit on the Head Lessons' instead?
     
  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    For you, my boy, I think a spanking would be in order! :lfao:
     
  9. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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    Look, it's his duty as a knight to sample as much peril as he can......
     
  10. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Mitose was not related to Motobu. At the first Gathering of Eagles, the Tracy's brought in Chosei Motobu for a seminar on his father's (Choki Motobu) Naihanchi kata and kumite techniques. Chosei was asked about the Motobu/Mitose connection and he states that there wasn't one.
     
  11. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I can be dangerous lol!!
     
  12. dmackay

    dmackay White Belt

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    Look,

    there is no argument here, just my opinion and I am entitled to it.
     
  13. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    ah, well, it is interesting that your very first post here on MT is to give your opinion regarding this person. You haven't even told us ANYTHING about yourself, so why would your opinion mean anything to anyone here? For all I know, you are a 12-year old sitting at a computer looking to start an online fight or something.

    If you've got an opinion to share and want it to be taken seriously, then tell us a bit about yourself and WHY we should give your opinion any merit.

    thanks.
     
  14. dmackay

    dmackay White Belt

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    Why should my opinion mean anything to anyone here? It shouldn't. It's my personal opinion based on factual information supplied over this forum, and other forums, as well as indirect personal experience.

    I don't care what you think of me. It's my opinion whether you like it or not.

    I was a student of Tao Kempo Karate. My former instructor Sensei Author W. now trains under a school that praises Terry Lee.

    Terry Lee came out this way, and promoted a school's instructor to 10th dan (with lots of cash) that was previously a 8th in under a year. That school now uses Terry Lee's crest supplied by Terry Lee. I'm sure if I threw lots of cash in front of Terry Lee, I'd be promoted as well.
     
  15. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    The usual thing here on MT is to go over to Meet and Greet to introduce yourself, we may be internet but we are polite. Opinion does actually matter here, it's what we do . . . discuss things in a reasonable and adult manner. We like things to be civilised. You just came across as being petulant and childish.
    If it's just accusations you want to make there's probably better places to make them. It's simply not how things are done here.


    Btw the sentence you've put up reads as if Terry Lee came out and gave the instructor loads of cash as well as his 10th Dan! I could do with some of that lol!
     
  16. dmackay

    dmackay White Belt

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    I am sorry.

    Here is a quote from GGM Thomas Mitose on Motubu in an article on the web.


    Geary: Miyagi went to Hawaii?
    Mitose: Yeah. He was there and also Motubu was there but Motubu, from what I heard, when he went to Hawaii he couldn't enter the islands. Because in order to enter the islands, he needed somebody, some family there in the islands. And this is what people where saying that Motubu was his uncle and so forth and a lot of people went for that story. Until I disproved this and then the Tracy brothers brought the Motubu family to Vegas, I guess they thought that where going to say that yeah Mitose was a relative and at this gathering they disproved it they said they didn't even know who Mitose was. So when they made that announcement at this gathering, it was a blow to the Tracy's. Because here they thought that now they really found the link to Kempo, Mitoses relatives. Well they didn't even know Mitose. Then all of the sudden they needed to scramble around, scramble around and out of the blue sky they bring me up there on the platform to say here's our link to Mitos
     
  17. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Anyway who is Mitose and Motubu?
    Seriously! We don't do the lineage thing much in UK, in fact the first time I ever heard about lineage was on MT and that's after many years of me doing MA. It tends to be if you have a good instructor thats what matters and not much else really.
     
  18. Skippy

    Skippy Orange Belt

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    This is the one post to this thread that makes any sense at all as it sums up everything perfect. Having a good instructor & enjoying the art you study is what really matters' All the rest is a load of crap. Kempo/Kenpo is well ... Kempo/Kenpo & if you train, study, or teach Kempo/Kenpo or arts related to Kempo/Kenpo then ... More power to you! As for James Mitose & his background well, Only he knew the real truth & that went with him when he passed away. he's dead & gone so ...Let it rest.
     
  19. Skippy

    Skippy Orange Belt

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    Tez,


    What you have to understand is here in the States everyone loves to argue about every bloody thing under the sun. It never ends! Lolz! Like every 4 years a new president gets voted in & there is endless upon endless mud slinging going on by the major political parties that want to put their particular stooge on the Whitehouse Throne. It doesn't really matter as both parties are gears to the same machine & nothing really changes anyways. Same with Kempo/Kenpo. Pro-Mitose, Anti Mitose. It's the same thing, he said, she said & lineage & blah blah blah & on & on. Life is short people! Enjoy your life while you have one.
     
  20. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    Oh gosh, not the Mitose thing again. Wake me up when it's de-evolved into mud slinging.
     

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