Jae Nam Performance

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by MBuzzy, Jun 12, 2008.

  1. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    The Pyang Ahn hyungs were originally all a single hyung, called Jae Name (I'm sure that this is debatable). How many of you have attempted to perform the whole thing as a single unit? If so, how do handle the transitions? I've heard of turning 90 degrees at the end of each or doing them all facing the same direction. What works best?

    Do you find that doing them all at once serves a specific purpose for you or your students?
     
  2. DMcHenry

    DMcHenry Blue Belt

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    I've had my advanced students regularly perform the Pyung-ahns as one form - simply moving from the last move of one form right into the first move of the next (no choonbe). I also ask them to perform them in reverse order, beginning with Pyung-ahn Ohdan down through Pyung-ahn Chodan, which always seems to be more difficult for them.
     
  3. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    So Pyang ahn Cho Dan and Ee Dan for example end facing Northeast....is the first movement of the following performed Northwest?

    Do you find that this helps them learn or remember the Pyang ahns? Or is it more of an awareness/preparedness exercise?
     
  4. DMcHenry

    DMcHenry Blue Belt

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    No, the next move (after the last move from the previous form) faces west like it always does.

    Students tend to really have to know their forms when doing them all as one - they don't have time to stop and think where they are, just do it.

    When having them go from 5 to 1, they generally mess up at PA2, then stumble and restart and can even blow PA1. Those are the forms they know best and have been doing the longest, but doing them in reverse order really throws them off for some reason (thus a great testing exercise).

    The longer they go too the sloppier they can get, especailly with back stances, so it's a great cross-check.

    Try it (or ask your students to) and see how they do, especially in reverse order. Something that appears to be a simple request can cause them to stumble. The other option is to just mix up the order and have them do them as one.
     
  5. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    I've actually never tried them all together in reverse order. I used to warm up every class with running every form I know in order and cool down with every form counting down - but that was when I was the only one in class!

    I've recently started (on my own) running forms back to back and facing new directions either every form. It is amazing how much we base our performance on the direction we are facing. If you're used to ending facing the flags....it really messes you up when you now end facing the mirrors....Especially with the hyung that have a lot of direction changes (e.g. jinto).

    Want to confuse a class, give them a dwirotora, THEN run the forms.
     
  6. DMcHenry

    DMcHenry Blue Belt

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    Agreed. I also used to get 4 students back to back at 45 deg. angles to the walls and have them all do the same form. Can get very interesting.... Then I'd put blind folds on them and see if they could finish the form close to the same spot they started and direction.
     
  7. JT_the_Ninja

    JT_the_Ninja Black Belt

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    One of the requirements for cho dan at my school (and, AFAIK, the ITF in general) is gicho hyung sam bu through pyung ahn o dan, all without choon bees in-between. We often, in class, will do several forms (not necessarily in order) without returning to choon bee. Now...if there's a special way to combine all the pyung ahn forms that isn't just simple concatenation, that'd be cool, of course.
     
  8. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    Exactly what I'm looking for. I've heard that the PA hyung were all one form at one time and were broken down for ease of teaching...so what is the "proper" or originally intended way to do this?

    TKD has several forms like this, in which if you do them all in sequence, they form a design (lotus blossom for taeguk I THINK, I might have the wrong form set).
     
  9. cdunn

    cdunn 2nd Black Belt

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    I've heard a lot about the supposed 'root form' of the Pyung Ahn set but, AFAIK, there's a lot more smoke about Channan than there is actual fire - http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=127 is one of the better articles I've read on the subject.

    That said, alot of the pieces of Pyung Ahn are also found in Kong Song Koon. I believe Itosu (Idos) was known to practice the form. If you have to rejigger it, you may want to concentrate on KSK.
     
  10. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    The pieces are also litered throughout the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro hyung. As far as I can tell, the history of the Pyang Ahns, Jaenam (channan), even KSK is spotty. As for which came first, which is the more effective training method, etc, who knows?

    The bottom line is that there may be a training purpose in working the forms as a single unit. Especially since in most schools, KSK isn't taught until much higher belts.

    This thought came to mind as I was rehearsing my Haidong Gumdo forms. I have been in the habit of running 2-3 or more back to back and starting the second form facing a different direction. Even just the act of stringing two together helps to stimulate training, facing different directions helps even more. I feel that if the forms were put together, it would be a great way to test a students' performance of the forms and help in retention - especially of the higher forms, when they are tired.
     
  11. JT_the_Ninja

    JT_the_Ninja Black Belt

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    Don't learn that form till sam dan (we call it kong son deh), but I know what you mean.
     
  12. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    From what I have learned, Pyung Ahn, or "Peaceful Confidence" is actually a mistranslation of Pinan, which means "Peaceful Mind."

    Master Itosu, reputedly, named these forms Pinan, because he thought that they would teach a student enough self defense techniques to give a student a mind at piece because they could defend themselves.

    With that being said, I think that it is best to view this set of hyung as one long piece of information, not neccessarily one hyung. Each one has its own flavor, character and principles. Zipping through all of them or seeing all as a single hyung, brushes over these differences IMHO.

    I've spoken to several older Okinawan Karateka that these are the only forms a student should know all of the way up to chodan. This should give us tangsoodoin a clue as to just what kind of depth really exists in this set.
     
  13. DatFlow

    DatFlow Yellow Belt

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    Do you think it would help to do other forms in a row? such as my Keecho Hyung?

    I think it may help me... lol
     
  14. DMcHenry

    DMcHenry Blue Belt

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    Absolutly, we do those all the time too, especially as a warm up exercise.
     
  15. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    When studying in Korea, my daily warm up consisted of every form that I knew. Cool down, the same thing backwards - GREAT way to learn forms!
     
  16. cdunn

    cdunn 2nd Black Belt

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    There are many training purposes in running all five as a unit. We do it for testing purposes - Can you hold pace and power at the end of it? My basic point, however, is that if you're looking for the material that the Pyung Ahn were created from, you're better off looking into KSK than running around looking for info on a form that's got no more substance than a shadow. If all you want is to see how other people run the 5 together, you may want to go searching for Pinan Dai, it's what the Okinawan styles call it when they run it together.

    The history of the Pyung Ahn isn't very spotty - except the couple different stories about where the KJN learned them. It is well documented that the Pinan - what we know as the Pyung Ahn - were created by Anko Itosu in approximately 1900, and introduced by 1905 to the Okinawan school system, when Itosu, whom KJN Hwang Kee refers to as Mr. Idos in one of his books, held a position as a Te teacher at a public school in Okinawa. Where he learned Kusanku / KSK is a question of open debate, but the order of the creation isn't really questionable; it goes KSK --> Pyung Ahn --> Chil Sung / Yuk Ro. No one even knows for certain if Channan ever existed, which makes it kind of hard to look to as something to help place the later forms into context.

    I'm not saying that there's no value to running it together - But I would suggest that we don't call it something it's not. It's just Pyung Ahn.
     
  17. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    Personally, I'm very interested in the history behind things and determining where they came from. Therefore the purpose here is to find sources or determine what different people know regarding the original form - if it exists or not. Call it Jaenam, Channan, Pyang ahn....same form, yes, but where it came from is different and IMO changes the performance and interpretation. For example, there are many different versions of Bassai, all from different styles and each, depending on its performance can be interpreted differently.

    To me - performing the form as one unit and learning its history are equally important.
     
  18. Master Jay S. Penfil

    Master Jay S. Penfil Blue Belt

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    Craig,
    The Pyong Ahn-Pinan-Heian series of Hyung-Kata did not come from Channan. Itosu Anko (as Upnorth stated) was designed as a series of Kata to teach beginning students as an intro to Kata. The order that we Tang So Do and Shotokan practitioners perform them in is NOT the original order that they were taught in, and in their beginning they were all taught separately.

    Many Tang Soo Do schools/associations have used them all as one as Master McHenry stated as a warm-up, or as an endurance exercises, but it should be clearly understood that, when Itosu designed them, he designed them each with specific lessons for the students to learn. Each kata teaches specific principles, and as they move forward from “Cho-dan to Oh-dan there are new stances introduced, along with more complex techniques.

    I had the privilege of meeting Sensei Takao Nakaya many years ago at the Jewish Community Center in Houston, Texas. He was a Karate instructor there for 25 years and we met by accident, but the meeting was very fruitful for me. Sensei Nakaya is a serious historian in the area of Okinawan and Japanese systems. He authored the book; Karate-Do: History and Philosophy. It was published in 1986 by JSS Publishing Company. They have since gone out of business. This book shows up on thr “Preferred reading” list of most major Okinawan and Japanese organizations. It took me 5 years to find a copy on line and I bought it right away. This book outlines with extreme detail the development of the systems that originated in Okinawa and their growth as they spread and moved forward with time. It discussed what got what from who and how they transmitted forward from one instructor to another. Sensei Nakaya is perhaps one of the worlds foremost experts in this area. It was Sensei Nakaya that cleared up the question of; where did the Pinan Kata originate. Channan / Jae Jam was not involved…

    All the best,

    Master Jay S. Penfil
     
  19. MBuzzy

    MBuzzy Grandmaster

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    Thank you sir!

    So the Channa/Jaenam form is pyang ahn in a different order - are there other major differences? Would the average TSD/SBD practitioner recognise it as a Pyang Ahn type form or is it completely different. Any idea where those forms originated?
     
  20. Master Jay S. Penfil

    Master Jay S. Penfil Blue Belt

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    Jae Nam/ Channan have nothing to do with Pyong Ahn...

    This is missinformation.

    I am not familiar with anyone that can truthfully state that they know Channan. If no one knows it, how can they back up the statement that this was the origin of Pinan?

    As stated, They are not related...


    All the best,


    Master Jay S. Penfil
     

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