Mou Meng Gung Fu
Purple Belt
Still waiting for a response. Everything else is just emphasizing what I already said. But then Buka also mentioned the uppercut. What are your thoughts?
Jab/cross vs. left/right hooks
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
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Still waiting for a response. Everything else is just emphasizing what I already said. But then Buka also mentioned the uppercut. What are your thoughts?
Discussing power... I have a vague idea that the uppercuts can be more powerful than straights and hooks because there is direct support from the ground (not sure it is clear that way).
Someone know the real figures? Or the sources?
Uppercuts generate a lot of power but the straight right from a physics standpoint produces more. The straight right allows you to get more of your weight behind the punch.
Like a hook, what makes the uppercut so nasty is not seeing it coming.
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neither has an advantage as there are many factors that can affect the effectiveness, accuracy, and structure of the strikes.
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The upper cut, is like getting hit with a truck. The straight shot is more of a cannon ball.
JR 137
Grandmaster
The shortest distance between two points is indeed a straight line.
But that doesn't in and of itself make it the fastest. In technical physics 1 in college (engineering and calculus based), our professor mathematically proved traveling along an asymptote (a sort of arc) is actually faster than a straight line. Then we did a lab to prove it - picture a hill with a string that goes from the top to the bottom. Put a weight on it, and time how long it takes to get to the bottom of the hill. The straight line took longer than the line that was higher up on the top, and the middle sagged.
The asymptote line was a good amount longer, yet took less time to get from point A to point B.
What relevance does this have to the question at hand? I haven't seen it measured, but perhaps hand speed found be quicker when throwing a hook vs a straight punch. Some different muscles are used, and the angle of pull of the muscles is a bit different. Possibly generating more power, aka hand speed. Perhaps not. Sounds like a radar gun experiment. And a hit a target with different punches while being timed experiment.
Anecdotally, I've seen far more KOs from hooks than straight punches. A lot has to do with not seeing them coming as easily and so on, but perhaps, just perhaps, hooks hit their target faster. It's a long shot, but you can't say for certain either way until someone studies it scientifically.
But that doesn't in and of itself make it the fastest. In technical physics 1 in college (engineering and calculus based), our professor mathematically proved traveling along an asymptote (a sort of arc) is actually faster than a straight line. Then we did a lab to prove it - picture a hill with a string that goes from the top to the bottom. Put a weight on it, and time how long it takes to get to the bottom of the hill. The straight line took longer than the line that was higher up on the top, and the middle sagged.
The asymptote line was a good amount longer, yet took less time to get from point A to point B.
What relevance does this have to the question at hand? I haven't seen it measured, but perhaps hand speed found be quicker when throwing a hook vs a straight punch. Some different muscles are used, and the angle of pull of the muscles is a bit different. Possibly generating more power, aka hand speed. Perhaps not. Sounds like a radar gun experiment. And a hit a target with different punches while being timed experiment.
Anecdotally, I've seen far more KOs from hooks than straight punches. A lot has to do with not seeing them coming as easily and so on, but perhaps, just perhaps, hooks hit their target faster. It's a long shot, but you can't say for certain either way until someone studies it scientifically.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #26
It's much easier to block a jab/cross than to block a hook (or hay-maker). When your opponent punches at you with jab/cross, you can extend your arm and draw a small circle in front of you.
If his punch is
- slow, his punch will be intersected by your forearm.
- fast, his punch will be intersected by your upper arm.
In both cases, it doesn't take much force to redirect a south force vector by an east or west force vector.
To block a hook is much harder. You can dodge your head under it. You can also move your arm away from your head to intersect that hook arm. This will expose your head completely. It will take more force to apply a west force vector to intersect a east force vector. Most of the time, that hook may knock your arm back and still hit your head at the same time.
The major issue for the jab/cross is if your opponent's arms extends in front of him, your jab/cross will be intersected by his extended arms. It's like, "My arms are here first. If you want to hit my head, your arms have to deal with my arms first". Your left/right hooks can by-pass your opponent's extended arms. IMO, that's a great advantage.
If his punch is
- slow, his punch will be intersected by your forearm.
- fast, his punch will be intersected by your upper arm.
In both cases, it doesn't take much force to redirect a south force vector by an east or west force vector.
To block a hook is much harder. You can dodge your head under it. You can also move your arm away from your head to intersect that hook arm. This will expose your head completely. It will take more force to apply a west force vector to intersect a east force vector. Most of the time, that hook may knock your arm back and still hit your head at the same time.
The major issue for the jab/cross is if your opponent's arms extends in front of him, your jab/cross will be intersected by his extended arms. It's like, "My arms are here first. If you want to hit my head, your arms have to deal with my arms first". Your left/right hooks can by-pass your opponent's extended arms. IMO, that's a great advantage.
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Our school's founder was a professor in Kinesiology and they did studies on a lot of these techniques. Straight punches were faster.
Also it was pretty interesting at how much power is generated in the last couple inches of a straight punch when you compare full extension verses stopping punch just before full extension.
You naturally slow down, at a certain point; so, make sure you are close enough for that sweet spot.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Interesting. I was a mechanic engineering student my first year of college, hence the technical physics class and reference. I switched to biology/sports medicine.
I'll accept the straight punch is faster. Again, I said it was a long shot, but from the asymptote perspective, it wasn't out of the realm of possibility.
Do you know if he measured force as well? I wonder if a hook punch hits with more, less, or the same amount of force on average than a straight punch.
Then there's the overhand punch, just to throw things off even more. And as Buka mentioned, the uppercut.
I'd love to go back to biomechanics/exercise physiology lab and determine which of my punches and kicks are the fastest and the strongest. And then analyze them to make them better. If only I had wondered then what I'm wondering now.
Straight punch generated more force. You are able to get a lot of weight behind the punch along with a lot of acceleration of the fist through the target.
Did not test overhands or uppercuts, only jabs, backfists, straight rights, and hooks. Also, did tests on side kicks (mechanics to increase speed and power.)
Mou Meng Gung Fu
Purple Belt
Perspectives...
When I mention a "left hook kick," what image does your mind project? Something that is familiar to your mind, I am sure, but what image do your fellow minds project? Some styles will have different opinions as to what a "left hook kick" actually means. For example, in the art of jeet kune do a "left hook kick" (or left "nou tek") is a forward rotation of the hips using the left leg to deliver a powerful shin kick high, mid or low to the opponent's head, body or legs. This is the equivalent to a "left roundhouse kick" in other MMA-styles. Likewise, the majority of MMA-stylists when they think of a "left hook kick" will automatically draw a mental image of a left "spinning hook kick" which is a backward rotation of the hips using the left leg to deliver a powerful heel kick to the opponent's head, back or body. This is the equivalent to a left "spinning back kick" (or "juen tek") in JKD-styles. So even terminology as seemingly common and basic as a "left hook kick" could be perceived in various ways, which opens the door to argumentative speech.
Likewise, when someone on the MTalk forums uses terminology like a "right straight" for example, this could cause a lot of misunderstandings even though we expect others to already know what we mean. The misunderstandings are not intentional, nor is the confusion due to lack of common sense. Rather, it's merely the fact that people here come from many different countries and regions, all with unique styles and perspectives. So we may want to consider this notion too as we're discussing jabs/crosses vs left/right hooks. Footwork is everything. MMA-stylists may or may not perceive this experiment from an orthodox stance, while JKD-stylists may or may not view this same experiment from a southpaw stance. There are many variations of straight punches and curved punches. Some have a vertical fist. Some have a horizontal fist. Some straights have more snapping speed (jabs) while some straights deliver more power (crosses). Some hooks are wider, while some hooks are more compact. There are many variables which need to be addressed first before any conclusion can be made with doubtless certainty.
When I mention a "left hook kick," what image does your mind project? Something that is familiar to your mind, I am sure, but what image do your fellow minds project? Some styles will have different opinions as to what a "left hook kick" actually means. For example, in the art of jeet kune do a "left hook kick" (or left "nou tek") is a forward rotation of the hips using the left leg to deliver a powerful shin kick high, mid or low to the opponent's head, body or legs. This is the equivalent to a "left roundhouse kick" in other MMA-styles. Likewise, the majority of MMA-stylists when they think of a "left hook kick" will automatically draw a mental image of a left "spinning hook kick" which is a backward rotation of the hips using the left leg to deliver a powerful heel kick to the opponent's head, back or body. This is the equivalent to a left "spinning back kick" (or "juen tek") in JKD-styles. So even terminology as seemingly common and basic as a "left hook kick" could be perceived in various ways, which opens the door to argumentative speech.
Likewise, when someone on the MTalk forums uses terminology like a "right straight" for example, this could cause a lot of misunderstandings even though we expect others to already know what we mean. The misunderstandings are not intentional, nor is the confusion due to lack of common sense. Rather, it's merely the fact that people here come from many different countries and regions, all with unique styles and perspectives. So we may want to consider this notion too as we're discussing jabs/crosses vs left/right hooks. Footwork is everything. MMA-stylists may or may not perceive this experiment from an orthodox stance, while JKD-stylists may or may not view this same experiment from a southpaw stance. There are many variations of straight punches and curved punches. Some have a vertical fist. Some have a horizontal fist. Some straights have more snapping speed (jabs) while some straights deliver more power (crosses). Some hooks are wider, while some hooks are more compact. There are many variables which need to be addressed first before any conclusion can be made with doubtless certainty.
I agree "not seeing it coming" but what really makes the upprecut nasty is the legs.
What are your best tips for setting up and delivering the uppercut? That's the one punch which doesn't have a major place in my game. I've put in time drilling it, but it rarely seems to show up in my sparring and I don't feel like I really grok it the way I do the jab, cross, hook, or overhand.
Danny T
Senior Master
The hook and short O/H is a good setup for the u/c. Body positioning is the same.
Work the straight rt to left body hook; st rt to left u/c; left b/h to left u/c and a rt o/h to left u/c.
On the rt side: Left h/h to rt u/c; Rt b/h to rt u/c; and one I like a lot is a left dia down elbow (#3 in TBA) to rt u/c.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
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A fun one for you. Flick your left hand out to the left. And then sucker punch them with an uppercut right.
While waiting Buka reply, try overhand (light / feint), then uppercut. Or vice-versa. In doubt of success, and after so much thread in the upperside, low kick. First (couple of) time(s) it works perfectly. And it is fun.
I only use uppercut this way.
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Good detail. Comparatively, a hook is powerful in a longer line (arc), isn't it?
Not sure.....I think with a hook you got to find the ideal arc to maximize power.
I would guess that if you threw the hook out too far it makes it harder to put your weight behind it.
I would think it has a sweet spot you need to find. Long enough to generate a lot of acceleration but still short enough to utilize your body's weight and torque. Kinda like a pitcher finding that ideal arm slot, or a hitter turning on a fast ball.
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While waiting Buka reply, try overhand (light / feint), then uppercut. Or vice-versa. In doubt of success, and after so much thread in the upperside, low kick. First (couple of) time(s) it works perfectly. And it is fun.
It's easier to show, than to explain. So..
I'll either have my wife take some pics of a drill we do, showing the mechanics of the movement, or, I'll have my buddy film it and ask him to put it up on youtube - which I believe would be better. I'm off the next two days, So, probably by Wednesday or Thursday. It's no big deal - but it works really well to develop the mechanics of how I believe it should be thrown. And I know of no other uppercut drill like it. It's really sweet.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
The thing is, there are a number of different ways that someone might engage and connect the body into the punch, or not. And that will have a huge effect on the power in the punch. So it isn't so easy to simply say, which is more powerful. The delivery methodology matters, as well as the individual's skill with the methodology, and their skill in applying that methodology to each type of punch. I would not assume ones skill is equal in all cases.
Best case, you could say that for you, the X punch is stronger than the Y punch, while for me or the next guy it could be the opposite.
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