It really is the system.

[drop bear]

System, in this case, is a generic term intended to mean any course of training, from a specific school to an entire martial arts style. And if results are being evaluated objectively, it should be pretty easy to diagnose where the anomalies lie. If someone goes to a grappling school and after a year, two years, five years, 10 years, still stinks at grappling, it might be the person, the school, or the entire system that is the problem.

My point is that, if most people who study in a school stink at whatever the school is teaching, it's not the people that are the problem. It's at least the school. But if that school is pretty typical of all of the schools in a style... the disfunction is systemic.

To be very clear, this is simply a comment about people getting good at whatever they think they're being taught. Where this gets tricky is when styles or schools start to bait and switch you by equating two things that are not actually the same. Self defense and something else. Fighting and something else. You might be learning ninjutsu... but are you learning to fight? You might be learning some version of Aikido, but what skills are you actually acquiring that translate to ability outside of the school?

When I hear the statement, "It really is the system," I think that applies to any style that relies on exceptional natural ability in order to excel. In BJJ, MMA, boxing, wrestling, Judo, etc, the beauty is that normal, average, every day people get really good all the time. People who are strong and not strong. People who are flexible and not flexible. People who have never been called 'athletic' in their lives. I mean, sure you can point to the elite athlete and say, "That guy is exceptional." But to demonstrate that the system is sound, and that the training can consistently and reliably build expertise, you can pick pretty much anyone who trains in the style.

The bait and switch I think is a bit more subtle. In that you are made to judge off what you can't see.

So the classic MMA guy gets owned in jujitsu and says yeah but if I could have thrown punches the outcome would have changed.

Or if a guy gets caught in an arm bar the outcome would be different if they had an imaginary knife.

If a style says an outcome. Then that outcome should be measured.

So we train for happiness or we train awareness really should measured that or the claim is meaningless.

The individual is kind of a weird one in that intent is used a bit. So " I am not training to be a UFC fighter" is the reasoning for I am not getting any better.

Yes one does factor in the individual but the other doesn't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I just can't believe that nobody agree with me the moment the TKD guy's uppercut landed on the Aikido guy's face, the sparring should stop right there.

I can't see where the punches landed. If it's the face, he should have been able to end it. If it was the top of the head, probably not so much.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Aikido guy takes advantage on the light sparring rule.

The Aikido guy can spar against Bill Wallace. If Bill Wallace uses controlled light kick, the Aikido guy can still take Bill Wallace down.

All I'm trying to say is if you take away "knock down" from a striker, the striker has nothing left. An 80 years old grappler can take down a 20 years old striker if the control sparring rule is applied.

There is something called "control punch". There is no such thing called "control throw". When you throw someone, you are using full force.

So what's the proper rule that should be followed when a striker spars against a grappler?

There's a lot of room between light sparring and 100%. I can keep a friendly grappler from getting good position with moderate strikes, if we're not going hard.

 

[MetalBoar]

This why the person has to acknowledge the strikes that would be damaging. If you land a light but solid strike to my head, Then I should mentally register that as a dangerous or damaging strike. I shouldn't think of it as a light strike that can't hurt me. Had the person thrown the punch full force then I would have been injured. I have to distinguish between strike that are more dangerous at 100% and strikes that would of no concern even at 100%

I agree that this is the better way to train if you and your partner are both equally invested in trying to learn things but it doesn't work very well if one or the other of you is more focused on "winning" than learning. I've experienced this problem when cross training with people who feel a strong need to "win" at sparring and also with people who are such blind believers in their system or their skill that they can't acknowledge when it isn't working for them. Obviously the long term answer is to either not spar with such people or go into it to learn what you can and make sure that you're not worried in the least about proving anything to them or what they learn.

Agree! The Aikido guy has no respect to the TKD guy's kicking/punching power.

In sparring, the 1st kick/punch that you throw should always be 100% power. If you can let your opponent to block your kick/punch and feels the shocking, the rest of the sparring will be easy for you.

This is why I hate the light contact sparring. How can you expect your opponent to respect your kick/punch if you can't let your opponent to feel your full power?

IMO, the light contact sparring rule between a striker and a grappler should be

When a

- head punch is landed by the striker.
- clinch is established by the grappler.

That's why I generally agree with Kung Fu Wang's posts above. Even when both participants are fully invested in cooperating to learn as much as possible from a light sparring session there's still the problem that some good number of techniques that work in light sparring will not work at harder contact levels and that a good number of techniques require more than (what most people consider) light contact to be effective. In my opinion light contact is best used as something like an advanced drill, within a rule set such as what Kung Fu Wang suggests or something similar, that focuses on the specific skills you're trying to develop from that sparring session. It isn't so useful for testing out your full arsenal of techniques because it's an overly artificial format.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This why the person has to acknowledge the strikes that would be damaging. If you land a light but solid strike to my head, Then I should mentally register that as a dangerous or damaging strike. I shouldn't think of it as a light strike that can't hurt me. Had the person thrown the punch full force then I would have been injured. I have to distinguish between strike that are more dangerous at 100% and strikes that would of no concern even at 100%

Agreed. There's a difference between you tagging me and hitting me lightly with what could have been a powerful punch. They don't feel the same from either side.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I just can't believe that nobody agree with me the moment the TKD guy's uppercut landed on the Aikido guy's face, the sparring should stop right there.

It makes no sense that the TKD guy doesn't want to knock the Aikido guy out, but the Aikido guy doesn't mind to take the TKD guy down.

If I know my opponent is not going to knock me out/down, I will have a big smile on my face no matter how many rounds that I spar.

The light sparring give you the wrong kind of confidence. The experience to gain from blocking a full power punch is different from to block a light punch.

If your opponent's punch can't make your blocking arm to feel the shocking force, your blocking experience won't be useful. Same as the kick. If your opponent's roundhouse kick can't almost break your blocking arm, your blocking experience won't be useful.

This is why light-contact sparring is more productive when the participants have some experience with hard contact sparring. That way they have a more realistic understanding of proper distancing, body mechanics, and which strikes would actually be damaging in a real fight.

When you have that understanding, you can give controlled strikes the appropriate respect and recognize whether a given shot would have been likely to hurt you/slow you down/take you out or not.

The Aikido guy takes advantage on the light sparring rule.

The Aikido guy can spar against Bill Wallace. If Bill Wallace uses controlled light kick, the Aikido guy can still take Bill Wallace down.

All I'm trying to say is if you take away "knock down" from a striker, the striker has nothing left. An 80 years old grappler can take down a 20 years old striker if the control sparring rule is applied.

There is something called "control punch". There is no such thing called "control throw". When you throw someone, you are using full force.

So what's the proper rule that should be followed when a striker spars against a grappler?

Sure there are controlled throws. I have many times taken a sparring partner down with care to make sure they landed safely. Other sparring partners have done the same for me.

You can't always ensure a soft landing (especially in a really competitive match), but the same can be said for light-contact sparring. Every now and then someone will get hit harder than intended. You can still do a fair amount to keep partners from landing too hard in a friendly light sparring session.

IMO, the light contact sparring rule between a striker and a grappler should be

When a

- head punch is landed by the striker.
- clinch is established by the grappler.

Nah.

• No martial artist should be completely limited to just striking or just grappling.
• Not all strikes are fight enders. Not all clinches are sufficient to complete a takedown. That upper cut the TKD landed from the headlock in the video was in no way a show stopper even if it had been thrown full force.
• Strikers need practice operating within the clinch, how to prevent takedowns and to land strikes from the clinch and how to break free safely.
• Grapplers need practice learning how to keep going when they get hit. If they mentally condition themselves to stop every time they get tagged lightly, that's counterproductive.
• Any martial artist needs to get a feel for how strikes and grapping flow from one to the other and how they interact

There's nothing wrong with working on a specific drill where one partner just tries to close the distance and establish a good clinch while the other tries to strike and maintain distance. It's a great drill and I've done it many times (on both sides). It's just not a substitute for sparring in general.

IMO, the "rule" for light sparring is to come in with the intent to learn and to be honest with yourself about how full contact would have changed the dynamic.
If I get a clinch and take my partner down and submit him, but get hit with a few glancing shots along the way, I recognize that I might have gotten a few bruises on the way to winning.
If I get a clinch and take my partner down and submit him, but get hit with a dozen perfectly clean shots with good range and body dynamics, then I recognize I might have gotten knocked out or been too dazed to actually finish the takedown in a real fight.
If I land some strikes while trying to prevent a clinch, but those strikes are poorly targeted or have poor body dynamics or have the wrong range, then I recognize that they probably would not have stopped a determined opponent, even if my sparring partner is being nice and not walking through them.

Sparring is about learning. Light contact sparring requires that we be honest with ourselves if we want to learn.

 

[drop bear]

This why the person has to acknowledge the strikes that would be damaging. If you land a light but solid strike to my head, Then I should mentally register that as a dangerous or damaging strike. I shouldn't think of it as a light strike that can't hurt me. Had the person thrown the punch full force then I would have been injured. I have to distinguish between strike that are more dangerous at 100% and strikes that would of no concern even at 100%

I sort of switch with this a bit. I should be able to throw a shot have it not work and recover and throw something else. So if say I tap a head kick an the other guy just eats it and keeps going forwards that doesn't really enrage me.

Do that to our coach though and he will beat you up. That particularly grinds his gears.

Submissions is a very good place to learn this, especially heel hooks because people invariably thrash the wrong way to escape. And there is no point to making a point of that by crippling someone.

 

[Yokozuna514]

IMO, the light contact sparring rule between a striker and a grappler should be

When a

- punch is landed on the head,
- clinch is established.

If that is the ruleset you want to use within your organization, you may want to think longer about the end goal of sparring with this in mind. Beginners may not be used to contact so accidental face shots can happen, if this results in them being tossed on their head with maximum efficacy the ruleset may have to be modified to ensure learning and experience can be gained without the risk of grave injury. Alternatively, if beginners clinch to stop a barrage of shots and this results in intensity ramping up to 100% power, again this ruleset would need to be modified or only people with truly no common sense will be participating in these types of matches.

If he can just walk through bills kicks and punches. Then the Aikido guy probably could.

The point is you should acknowledge you kind of can't walk through them.

I haven't seen any evidence of any Akidoka that would walk through punches and kicks from Bill Wallace or any one else at his level of experience. Maybe they exist but you would think there would be some video of it somewhere.

No you shouldn't be able to walk through a striker's punches or kicks in a real contest but that doesn't mean you need to go at 100% intensity ALWAYS regardless of who you are matching or their level of experience as I think Kung Fu Wang was suggesting. If that is the reputation you want to garner for yourself, you will probably attract many people that wouldn't mind testing your 100% so that they can lay their hands on you and bounce you on your head at their 100%. Not sure about you, but I have to work on Monday and don't necessarily want to risk life and limb every time I step on the tatami. Do I want to test it from time to time ? Sure ok but let's agree on a ruleset that isn't going to cripple and maim us just to find out where we are in our training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I get a clinch and take my partner down and submit him, but get hit with a dozen perfectly clean shots ...

- Your opponent use 25% force head punch on you, you still take him down.
- Your opponent use 50% force head punch on you, you still take him down.

Next time, he may use 75% force head punch on you. A control sparring soon turn into a full contact sparring.

In one Chinese wrestling tournament, my opponent's right hand grabbed on my waist belt. I used my left arm to strike on the outside of his right elbow joint. The 1st time I only use 30% power, but my opponent still won't let it go. The 2nd time, I used 50% power, my opponent still hanged on. The 3rd time, I use full force, he finally let it go. But the audience all screamed at me as if I tried to hurt my opponent on the wrestling mat.

What option do I have? If my opponent doesn't respect my 30% power, I have to use 50% power. If my opponent still doesn't respect my 50% power, I may have to use full power.

IMO, if you don't respect your opponent's power, the ring/mat will no longer be a safe place to test your MA skill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have to work on Monday and don't necessarily want to risk life and limb every time I step on the tatami.

- You can use single leg to take your opponent down 10,000 times to build up confidence that your single leg has high successful rate.
- You can use arm bar to tap your opponent out 10,000 times to build up confidence that your arm bar has high successful rate.
- You just can't knock your opponent down 10,000 times to build up confidence that your punching power has high successful rate.

This is the general problem for the striking art. The issue is not whether knock down is easier than the take down, or the other way around. The issue is it's easier to train "take down", but harder to train "knock down".

 

[Steve]

The bait and switch I think is a bit more subtle. In that you are made to judge off what you can't see.

So the classic MMA guy gets owned in jujitsu and says yeah but if I could have thrown punches the outcome would have changed.

Or if a guy gets caught in an arm bar the outcome would be different if they had an imaginary knife.

If a style says an outcome. Then that outcome should be measured.

So we train for happiness or we train awareness really should measured that or the claim is meaningless.

The individual is kind of a weird one in that intent is used a bit. So " I am not training to be a UFC fighter" is the reasoning for I am not getting any better.

Yes one does factor in the individual but the other doesn't.

Agreed. The school element is what I really had in mind. More of a, "You won't be good at fighting, because I'm not training you to be a UFC fighter. But you'll be REALLY good at self defense."

 

[Yokozuna514]

- Your opponent use 25% force head punch on you, you still take him down.
- Your opponent use 50% force head punch on you, you still take him down.

Next time, he may use 75% force head punch on you. A control sparring soon turn into a full contact sparring.

I don't want to seem as if I am picking on your posts, I am not trying to however I thought I would point out that 25% or 50% power to the head may not be a good way to frame your point. A guy that is 6'-3" and 240 lbs could give you a serious concussion if they land a clean shot at 25 to 50% power. I would advocate that a 25 to 50% shot to the solar plexus is sufficient to send anyone a message given that both opponents are roughly the same size. Similarly the same intensity hit to the floating ribs should be ample to let someone know they have holes in their game.

I hope that all of these types of exchanges begin and end with respect. As many people have already said, there is a time a place for light sparring as well as a time and place for going 100%. Giving a shot at 100% all the time regardless of who you are facing doesn't seem to be appropriate to me for the reasons I've already stated but I appreciate this exchange none the less.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I read this wrong the first time

I agree with this. Light sparring such as tapping strikes. Should have rules like that. For me this type of sparring wouldn't be classified as light.

I sort of switch with this a bit. I should be able to throw a shot have it not work and recover and throw something else. So if say I tap a head kick an the other guy just eats it and keeps going forwards that doesn't really enrage me.

Do that to our coach though and he will beat you up. That particularly grinds his gears.

Submissions is a very good place to learn this, especially heel hooks because people invariably thrash the wrong way to escape. And there is no point to making a point of that by crippling someone.

I'm like your coach. I rather see someone understand that a strike would have been costly and that they screwed up. To me that means the are mentally aware. My brother's girlfriend would just try to walk in like nothing happened. I asked if she was aware that my kicks were getting in clean. She said she wasn't. She had no clue that she was open and that my foot was on her abdomen. Stuff like that sets me off, but only when they they don't see it. I have a video with th instructor from the old school. I ask him "are you going to keep giving me that opening" He didn't even know that my foot was tapping his ribs freely with no resistance. I'm guess I'm like this because it's the stuff you don't see that causes the most damage. I should always be aware of my weak spots

 

[Yokozuna514]

- You can use single leg to take your opponent down 10,000 times to build up confidence that your single leg has high successful rate.
- You can use arm bar to tap your opponent out 10,000 times to build up confidence that your arm bar has high successful rate.
- You just can't knock your opponent down 10,000 times to build up confidence that your punching power has high successful rate.

This is the general problem for the striking art. The issue is not whether knock down is easier than the take down, or the other way around. The issue is it's easier to train "take down", but harder to train "knock down".

I'm not really sure I am following your train of thought any longer. What is the general problem for striking arts ? That we have no way to knock someone down ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A guy that is 6'-3" and 240 lbs could give you a serious concussion if they land a clean shot at 25 to 50% power.

This is why in another post I tried to explain "one should respect his opponent's 25% power strike". When people don't respect the other's person's striking power, a light contact sparring will turn into a full contact sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not really sure I am following your train of thought any longer. What is the general problem for striking arts ? That we have no way to knock someone down ?

A: How many people have you taken down so far?
B: I have taken down about N guys.
A: Can you still take people down today?
B: I believe I can.
A: How many people have you knocked down so far?
B: ...
A: Can you still knock people down today?
B: ...

 

[Yokozuna514]

This is why in another post I tried to explain "one should respect his opponent's 25% power strike". When people don't respect the other's person's striking power, a light contact sparring will turn into a full contact sparring.

Or you could be sparring with someone that doesn't have the experience to know that you are going 25%. I am sure in your training hall as in my dojo, most people that train there have a healthy respect for their training partners. If they don't, I agree intensity will go to 100% in a matter of no time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a MA tournament uses a simple rule such as the round stop at either a knock down, or a take down, who will be benefitted by this rule? the striker, or the grappler?

 

[JowGaWolf]

There's an odd thing in the Aikido world (Ueshiba's Aikido). I see very few examples of folks who know how to strike. And Ueshiba was quoted as saying something like "Aikido is 70% atemi (strikes)". I don't understand how the strikes vanished from the art if they were so important to the founder.

I have a couple of ideas about how that may have happened. Unfortunately I think it's a natural course of things. I look at how I teach martial arts. The students who want to learn Jow Ga but don't care about learning how to fight using it will know less than the students I teach how to apply it in sparring and in fighting. When I teach like this, I'm actually creating 2 camps.

1. Those who know Jow Ga but lack the knowledge and skills to apply it. (limited understanding, knows what it look like)
2. Those who know Jow Ga and focus on the knowledge and skills to apply it. (detailed understanding of how the gears work)

Those in group #1 believe that their knowledge of quantity = knowledge of a system. Yet nothing happens when they screw up an application. People in this group care about how stuff looks so they "purify the look"

Those in group #2 believe that application and use = understanding. Lots of downsides for screwing up an application. People in this group care about how stuff functions so they "purify the function"

Group #1 can get rid of punches without consequences. Group #2 cannot.

A lot of Aikido practitioners fall under Group #1 and when they look for function they will abandon the system because they believe that they understand all there is to understand Aikido, without ever realizing that they never train with the same mind set that Group #2 trains in. They thing they can take Group #1 Knowledge and make it work in a Group #2 setting and it doesn't work that way. It never has

 

[JowGaWolf]

but it doesn't work very well if one or the other of you is more focused on "winning" than learning.

I'm with you on this one. I used to spar with someone who only cared about getting the best shots in, as a result I had to be careful of what I try to pull off because if I fail he would take advantage of it and hit me. I could deal with it because I had a couple of techniques I was really comfortable with.

But one day he hits a student on the top of the head and in the video you can see that her knees buckle and she almost passes out (due to the vertebrae compression). There was no reason to strike her like that or anyone like that, but he was all about getting the best shot in. If I hit him hard, he'll try to hit me harder, If I land a good shot he will try to land a better shot. If I'm open he would take the cheap shot instead of the Polite Strike that reminds you that you left yourself wide opened. It was all about winning for him, and because of that he learned very little kung fu application.

Obviously the long term answer is to either not spar with such people or go into it to learn what you can and make sure that you're not worried in the least about proving anything to them or what they learn.

They are still good for something. Once you have "mastered " the technique to the point you feel that you can pull it off and still protect yourself, then those are the type of guys you want to really put your skills to the test. But if you are still working things out and learning the technique, then leave those guys alone. They will only slow your growth. In my case, I was able to learn my techniques by sparring people who weren't trying to win or knock my head off. Then when I feel comfortable with the technique, then I'll spar with those knuckle heads. I don't remember trying too many new things with the instructor from my old school. The 2 instructors (before I became one) and one other student used to go at it hard, at the beginning I did the same thing but stopped because it was too dangerous to try new stuff that I was learning. But anyway. if you have your techniques down pat already, then go bang it out with in reason. Show them what you know.

That way they have a more realistic understanding of proper distancing, body mechanics, and which strikes would actually be damaging in a real fight.

Yep. When you mess up in that environment, you have conversations like "I was punching too far out." or "I kept slipping the punch the wrong way." In a full contact those same mistakes turn into conversations like "are you, ok?!? Give him some air." "Sit out for a bit." "How are you feeling? How many fingers are you hold up."

I remember I was trying something new once and literally jumped into the punch. The world went black, I wasn't knocked out, but I didn't see the punch and when the lights came back on, I asked "What did you hit me with?" That's when he said, he didn't hit me, he just stuck his fist out "stiff arm" and I ran into it. lol. I couldn't tell you how I made that mistake, or what I should have learned that day. I didn't remember 3 minutes prior to that.. I just remember that I had a brown out lol. and that my cheek hurt.