Is WTF ANY good for self defence

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CountPike

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This seems to have been a very controversial issue for many people. Is WTF TKD any use for self defence. I mainly ask because apparently 70% of the syllabus is kicking and the competition is based on kicking eachother in the head. Apparently you learn no defencees or blocks.
Now for me this seems odd in a martial art.
Apparently in ITF people learn kicks, punches, defences etc and a more full art. Anyone got an opinion on this?
 

Andrew Green

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"Good" is a very relative term.

Being aggressive and well conditioned is "good" even with no fight training.

If a person can take a hit and keep going, hit hard, and be aggressive they're off to a good start on that alone. WTF brand TKD can do that.

But if you start trying to throw high spinning kicks it starts getting risky, might hurt them, might hurt you. Not to mention the fact that being grabbed is a potential problem...

But for "self-defence" what style of martial arts you do is not really an important thing. Truthfully whether or not you do ANY martial arts is not really important. Most people can stay perfectly safe without ever having to hit anyone or get hit by anyone.

For the most part all martial arts training really does in terms of "self-defence" is give people confidence. Whether it is real or false? chances are they'll never find out.
 

TigerWoman

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WTF as in Olympic style sparring? That is a sport. We have gone through this topic many times. WTF TKD is also traditional. Self-defense, is knee strikes, eye gouges, groin strikes, elbow strikes, punches, knife strikes etc. etc. We don't spar that way in class-sport sparring is separate from self-defense. But we do practice kicking 90% of the time and what you do the most, you are the best at. At the right time, as others have said many times in many threads, a spin heel to the head will end a fight, possibly a life. One of my breaks for 1st dan is a floor sweep on a board sitting on edge. Simulates a leg. A crescent kick can take out a wrist holding a knife. Everything has its time and place. See back threads on this subject. Most recent one here TW
 

Miles

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CountPike said:
This seems to have been a very controversial issue for many people. Is WTF TKD any use for self defence. I mainly ask because apparently 70% of the syllabus is kicking and the competition is based on kicking eachother in the head. Apparently you learn no defencees or blocks.
Now for me this seems odd in a martial art.
Apparently in ITF people learn kicks, punches, defences etc and a more full art. Anyone got an opinion on this?
Count,

The World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) is the "International Federation" recognized by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) for Sport Taekwondo.

The WTF style (known as "Kukki Taekwondo") of free sparring (kyorugi) emphasizes kicking over hand techniques. It is full-contact sparring utilizing complex, dynamic footwork. Elite level competitors don't have the need to block-they move their bodies out of the danger zone.

The WTF requires international competitors to be certified by the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters) in Seoul. The Kukkiwon acknowledges other types of Kyorugi such as hanbeon kyorugi (1 step sparring), dubeon kyorugi (2 step sparring) and sambeon (3 step sparring). There are blocks, punches to the face, eye-gouges, throws, joint locks, etc. within those types of sparring.

In addition, Taekwondo schools practice self-defense (hoshinsul).

Taekwondo is a complete martial art. There is no controversy.

Miles
 

Tgace

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ANY martial art can be "good" for self defense as self defense is "mind dependent" rather than "style dependent". Direct any punches/kicks at the right targets and there you go....The biggest problem with "self defense" and the martial arts is the confusion between "victory" and "survival" IMO...
 

TigerWoman

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Tgace said:
ANY martial art can be "good" for self defense as self defense is "mind dependent" rather than "style dependent". Direct any punches/kicks at the right targets and there you go....The biggest problem with "self defense" and the martial arts is the confusion between "victory" and "survival" IMO...

That is one of the things that has always bothered me about our self defense. Its not avoidance or control just the down and dirty. Someone grabs my hand to get my attention, he might get a broken knee and knee to the groin from automatic response. Not a victory response but not really a survival response...just ingrained. What is hard is knowing what is the appropriate response and getting that thought in there first before instinct for survival takes over.

I had an occasion one night. It was after 9pm and had locked the door of our dojang and was turning around. A guy approached me and was talking about signing up his kids for classes. I said to call or come back tomorrow at noon. He reached and I automatically blocked his arm hard, dropped my bag and yelled. He backed away quickly. He was reaching for a brochure on the side of the door but I had a rail, the door and a wall, confined space and he was coming past me up a step. I could have kicked his knee easily but stopped when I saw surprise at the block. Our dojang has three bars on it, not a great place at night. He said it was for a brochure, sorry, and left. Don't know if he came back the next day. Near miss. I don't like that door situation at night. TW
 

Brad Dunne

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The answers from everybody have been informative and conditionally correct. Regardless of what one may study, they must have the proper mindset to achieve self defense in a situation. That is totally an individual trait that some can become adjusted too/taught and there are those that may never reach that position, for whatever reason.
 

Shu2jack

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The WTF style (known as "Kukki Taekwondo") of free sparring (kyorugi) emphasizes kicking over hand techniques. It is full-contact sparring utilizing complex, dynamic footwork. Elite level competitors don't have the need to block-they move their bodies out of the danger zone.
Just out of curosity, if they don't need to block, why do they get hit in the head?

I am being totally honest and serious here. I watched the olympic sparring and some WTF sparring and I have always been curious as to why they don't keep their hands up at the very least.

Do you guys find that it is easier to kick with your hands down? Is it a mental thing? I really want to know because now that the ATA has started requiring chest protectors and we started leaning towards olympic sparring I have noticed a lot of people in my division dropping hands and doing things I have not seen before.

I have heard that the style of sparring does not allow kicks directly to the front of the face, so does that play a part in it?
 

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Adept said:
Maybe in the movies. Not something I'd like to try IRL though.

If you don't practice it, it won't be there in real life. TW
 

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CountPike said:
This seems to have been a very controversial issue for many people. Is WTF TKD any use for self-defense?
To be less controversial may be you need to ask how does sport TKD apply itself to self-defense?

I would say it prepares you in these ways:

1) It prepares you to whether the onslaught. This gives a person who is generally not in a fight everyday a chance to put up a self-defense. Pre-conditioning for violent situations allows your mind to hold together to think and react correctly in combat situation.

2) Sport conditioning, strength, speed and agility are emphasized in Sport TKD. That means weights; sprinting and footwork drills are incorporated into our training.

3) We definitely believe that it is better to give than to receive. Our sparring does not reward people for the hard blocks. We generally try to a) not to get hit and counter or b) parry shots and counter. Generally aggression is rewarded in sport TKD.

As for the rest of your post Miles answer is Golden.
 

ajs1976

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Shu2jack said:
I am being totally honest and serious here. I watched the olympic sparring and some WTF sparring and I have always been curious as to why they don't keep their hands up at the very least.

Do you guys find that it is easier to kick with your hands down? Is it a mental thing? I really want to know because now that the ATA has started requiring chest protectors and we started leaning towards olympic sparring I have noticed a lot of people in my division dropping hands and doing things I have not seen before.

I have heard that the style of sparring does not allow kicks directly to the front of the face, so does that play a part in it?
Shu2jack,

My instructor teaches us to spar with our hands up, but I have some ideas as to why others spar with the hands down.

First, there are no punches to the head. Second, from what I have been told, it is hard to score a point with a punch to the trunk, so most people avoid them. A lot of people have a hard time kicking someone in the head, especially if the person is taller. Most of the kicks are roundkicks to the trunk, so if the arms are down, they are already in position.
 

bignick

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doc clean said:
...from what I have been told, it is hard to score a point with a punch to the trunk, so most people avoid them...
Try dang near impossible...I've knocked people back 3 feet with a straight punch to the chest protector and didn't get a thing for it...
 

Shu2jack

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Thanks. That seems to make sense, though I think they should count the hand techniques. Scoring with a hand technique is more difficult than with a foot technique in the ATA, but at least when I hit with the hands I get the point.

Full-contact sounds fun, though the application of the rules seem silly. No offense intended.

Also, am I correct in saying that you are not allowed to strike towards the face with your feet?
 

Shu2jack

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If I for some reason got caught off guard and had my hands full at the moment.

If I was dealing with one attacker and I spot a second coming from my side. If he lunges with a weapon or a hand I could use a kick to at least buy me a few seconds to disengage from the first attacker.

If I had my hands grabbed and I had a second person coming at me I could perform a kick, though at that point it the confrontation would nearly be over and you would be on the "bad" end of it.
Some tools are more limited that others, but everything has a place. I used to think a knifehand high block as taught to me in forms was silly until a man with a knife grabbed at my hair while I was in a crouching position. What were the odds that a man with a knife would be grabbing at my hair, especially at my height? Small, but hit happened and I had the tool.
 

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Shu2jack said:
Just out of curosity, if they don't need to block, why do they get hit in the head?
1)Misjudgement

2)They are playing the precentages with hands being down ready to parry a kick.
 

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If someone doesn't agree with me about the crescent, come right out and say so instead of pinging me 5 pts. and not signing it. Not too cool.

This is a legitimate defense. I would rather do a quick kick with my leg than get anywhere near with my body or arms. Actually we practice this kick alot in our school and one can be quite adept at it. ;) I was tested on my rec. BB test for this with a fake knife- it didn't touch my skin and I hardly had hit his arm before it was dropped. (padded wrist). And I think this is my second go-round defending this technique. TW
 

Shu2jack

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If it was a misjudgement, then having the hands up would help reduce the damaging results of a "misjudgemnt".

I can see "playing the odds". Personally, under sparring with a near identical rule-set I find that having my hands up prevents injury, reduces the chances of being cracked in the head for 2 points, and still gives me a reasonable chance to block torso kicks.
 

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I noticed that there was a few posts that were talking about weapon defense, in particular the knife. I'd be interested in hearing what the TKD weapon defenses are like. This is not to slam TKD, but simply to get a better understanding of how the defenses are done. I don't have a TKD background, but I think it would be interesting to know..for me at least, seeing that my main background is in Kenpo and Arnis.

As for me...anytime one faces a knife, there is a risk of getting cut. That being said, I think its important to try and protect our vitals as much as possible. For example. Taking a cut to the outside of the arm compared to the inside. IMO, getting away is the best defense. If that is not an option, using something as an equalizer would be my next choice, and lastly attempting an empty hand disarm.

Anyways...I'm interested in hearing from some of the TKD people!

Thanks in advance! :asian:

Mike
 

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