Is Wing Chun even viable.

[Martial D]

You're back to assuming folks enter martial arts for fighting. Some just want to compete in super-light point sparring and forms, or just want to play with some fun body movement. There's really not an analogy in tennis that I can think of.

Well, the anology is that the game of tennis came first, and the training methods and advanced techniques etc came later, as people endeavoured to become better at it.

So it is with fighting and martial arts.

 

[DocWard]

And of those that do find tennis interesting, how many practice it with no intentions of becoming good at playing tennis I wonder.

I, for one, would be completely nonplussed if a person told me they were taking up any activity, yet had no intention of improving at it. This would be true for not only physical activities like the martial arts, running or tennis, but for everything from video gaming to needlepoint and knitting.

The questions then, relate not only to personal motivation for doing an activity, but to how much one wishes to improve. This will depend upon their physical and mental abilities and deficits, along with their ability to dedicate time and resources, along with handling the other priorities in their life. Priorities can change dramatically over time, as well. A martial arts journey, like any other, doesn't take place in a vacuum where it can travel a straight and orderly path.

For instance, in my own case, I initially took up a martial art in 1991, when my Reserve Unit was activated and I was at Ft. Sam Houston during Desert Storm. I was working out and running, and was as fit as I've been in life, but much of that was done during regular PT. I was going stir crazy during my off duty hours and a civilian I worked with suggested I take some lessons at his dojo. I did, and enjoyed myself, and got rid of a lot of stress for the three months or so I took lessons. The sensei suggested if I wanted to continue in martial arts, to look for a Kenpo dojo when I got back home.

Once I finished college and located where I live now, I looked up a Kenpo dojo (conveniently, one of the only dojos in town at the time) and began training again. It was great stress relief while in law school and as a young assistant prosecutor. I also enjoyed the discipline, learning new skills and knowledge, and more. I progressed fairly rapidly until two daughters, career responsibilities, and the National Guard started intervening. On the cusp of training for my black belt, my frustration level, and that of my instructor, were such that I decided a break was in order. As I have mentioned, I am only now getting back to it after many years. How good was I when I was training regularly? I can only say once I was a brown belt, I could spar effectively against others who competed regularly at tournaments, as well as two who fought and did well in NASKA and internationally.

The above isn't intended to speak of or brag about myself, but to point out a few things, using the best example I know. People enter the arts for a variety of reasons, often having nothing to do with lifestyle change. Taking the step does mean they likely don't wish to be stagnant in their involvement, but wish to make some progress. Once they do, their priorities can indeed change over time, for a number of usually legitimate reasons.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, the anology is that the game of tennis came first, and the training methods and advanced techniques etc came later, as people endeavoured to become better at it.

So it is with fighting and martial arts.

I just don't agree that everyone who enters martial arts is specifically interested in being better at fighting (at least not in a meaningful way). Most are - at least as a tangential thing - but not all.

There are some who don't even enter martial arts out of any specific interest in martial arts. It's something they join to hang out with a friend or SO who's starting. They might just as easily have taken up tennis with no real interest in getting good at tennis.

But I don't think we're getting anywhere with this, MD. It's not an important point to me.

 

[Steve]

I, for one, would be completely nonplussed if a person told me they were taking up any activity, yet had no intention of improving at it. This would be true for not only physical activities like the martial arts, running or tennis, but for everything from video gaming to needlepoint and knitting.

The questions then, relate not only to personal motivation for doing an activity, but to how much one wishes to improve. This will depend upon their physical and mental abilities and deficits, along with their ability to dedicate time and resources, along with handling the other priorities in their life. Priorities can change dramatically over time, as well. A martial arts journey, like any other, doesn't take place in a vacuum where it can travel a straight and orderly path.

For instance, in my own case, I initially took up a martial art in 1991, when my Reserve Unit was activated and I was at Ft. Sam Houston during Desert Storm. I was working out and running, and was as fit as I've been in life, but much of that was done during regular PT. I was going stir crazy during my off duty hours and a civilian I worked with suggested I take some lessons at his dojo. I did, and enjoyed myself, and got rid of a lot of stress for the three months or so I took lessons. The sensei suggested if I wanted to continue in martial arts, to look for a Kenpo dojo when I got back home.

Once I finished college and located where I live now, I looked up a Kenpo dojo (conveniently, one of the only dojos in town at the time) and began training again. It was great stress relief while in law school and as a young assistant prosecutor. I also enjoyed the discipline, learning new skills and knowledge, and more. I progressed fairly rapidly until two daughters, career responsibilities, and the National Guard started intervening. On the cusp of training for my black belt, my frustration level, and that of my instructor, were such that I decided a break was in order. As I have mentioned, I am only now getting back to it after many years. How good was I when I was training regularly? I can only say once I was a brown belt, I could spar effectively against others who competed regularly at tournaments, as well as two who fought and did well in NASKA and internationally.

The above isn't intended to speak of or brag about myself, but to point out a few things, using the best example I know. People enter the arts for a variety of reasons, often having nothing to do with lifestyle change. Taking the step does mean they likely don't wish to be stagnant in their involvement, but wish to make some progress. Once they do, their priorities can indeed change over time, for a number of usually legitimate reasons.

Good post. The idea that improved fighting skill is not a goal of martial arts training suggests that some folks will knowingly choose a school or style that is unlikely to teach fighting skills if it helps them get fit. This puts those styles squarely in the same category as Tai chi and tae bo. Would the practitioners of wing Chun agree with this, because that's where this line of reasoning leads us, and it reflects poorly on wing Chun as a viable fighting art.

 

[Steve]

I just don't agree that everyone who enters martial arts is specifically interested in being better at fighting (at least not in a meaningful way). Most are - at least as a tangential thing - but not all.

There are some who don't even enter martial arts out of any specific interest in martial arts. It's something they join to hang out with a friend or SO who's starting. They might just as easily have taken up tennis with no real interest in getting good at tennis.

But I don't think we're getting anywhere with this, MD. It's not an important point to me.

From an integrity perspective, it would be nice if schools or styles would be more clear in their sales pitch:. Good for fitness, but don't expect to learn skills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good post. The idea that improved fighting skill is not a goal of martial arts training suggests that some folks will knowingly choose a school or style that is unlikely to teach fighting skills if it helps them get fit. This puts those styles squarely in the same category as Tai chi and tae bo. Would the practitioners of wing Chun agree with this, because that's where this line of reasoning leads us, and it reflects poorly on wing Chun as a viable fighting art.

I think some people do just that - or, rather, they choose a style without regard to whether it will develop useful fighting skills or not. I don't have a problem with them doing that, nor with folks teaching without regard to that, as long as they're honest with themselves and their students that that's their focus. There are branches of Ueshiba's Aikido that seem to have gone that way, quite purposefully.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From an integrity perspective, it would be nice if schools or styles would be more clear in their sales pitch:. Good for fitness, but don't expect to learn skills.

Well, they do learn skills - just not skills useful for the purpose of fighting. I suspect Shin-shin Toitsu Aikido (Tohei's branch) is an example of such. While I'm sure there are some folks in that style that think what they're learning is also for fighting, the stated purpose of the pursuit is ki development, as I understand it.

I'm not bothered (though maybe I should be) if someone doesn't explicitly say "we don't teach fighting skills". I'm more bothered when someone says "we teach fighting skills" but doesn't actually attempt to do so (or doesn't try to validate anything they do with some sort of resistance).

 

[Steve]

I think some people do just that - or, rather, they choose a style without regard to whether it will develop useful fighting skills or not. I don't have a problem with them doing that, nor with folks teaching without regard to that, as long as they're honest with themselves and their students that that's their focus. There are branches of Ueshiba's Aikido that seem to have gone that way, quite purposefully.

I've never seen any aikido school acknowledge any thing like this. I'd love to see on the website anything along the lines of, "we don't teach fighting skills, and instead focus on health andnfitness. For fighting skills, we recommend you avoid aikido."

What we end up hearing more often is, "we train with cops, and our instructor knows a guy who is really deadly. So, our focus is fitness, but rest assured, when the time comes, this is going to work.". Of course, when it doesn't, that's not the school's fault.

 

[Martial D]

I just don't agree that everyone who enters martial arts is specifically interested in being better at fighting (at least not in a meaningful way). Most are - at least as a tangential thing - but not all.

There are some who don't even enter martial arts out of any specific interest in martial arts. It's something they join to hang out with a friend or SO who's starting. They might just as easily have taken up tennis with no real interest in getting good at tennis.

But I don't think we're getting anywhere with this, MD. It's not an important point to me.

Well sure..there are plenty of people that join an ma club to stay in shape, fun, etc etc or whatever selling point caught their eye...

But when they get there, they are still throwing punches and kicks, blocking, doing throws, and to some extent simulating fighting situations through drills etc.

It seems an excersise in futility to try to separate the two, unless you can admit you are just acting.

But nobody will admit that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've never seen any aikido school acknowledge any thing like this. I'd love to see on the website anything along the lines of, "we don't teach fighting skills, and instead focus on health andnfitness. For fighting skills, we recommend you avoid aikido."

What we end up hearing more often is, "we train with cops, and our instructor knows a guy who is really deadly. So, our focus is fitness, but rest assured, when the time comes, this is going to work.". Of course, when it doesn't, that's not the school's fault.

I think many in Aikido don't realize the gaps in their training. Those training it after or with another art are learning useful skill, but I think much of it is only useful when a foundation is built with something else.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well sure..there are plenty of people that join an ma club to stay in shape, fun, etc etc or whatever selling point caught their eye...

But when they get there, they are still throwing punches and kicks, blocking, doing throws, and to some extent simulating fighting situations through drills etc.

It seems an excersise in futility to try to separate the two, unless you can admit you are just acting.

But nobody will admit that.

I don't think it's futile to separate them - Billy Blanks did a good job of that with Tae Bo.

 

[Danny T]

Do not all those reasons at least fall under the veneer of learning to fight though? Otherwise why punches and kicks? Why blocks? Why footwork?

You must admit these things are purposeful activities that don't make a lot of sense with that veneer stripped away.

Well, must be they are lying to me about not being interested in fighting and aren't interested in sparring but only wanting a good physical workout.
Sure we utilizing fighting techniques and actions for the workout but for them it isn't about fighting but a hard workout. We have a few who aren't real crazy about the punching and kicking but say they prefer working out with us because of the positive environment, the emphasis on proper techniques, and the encouragement they get with us compared to other 'fitness kickboxing, crossfit, or weight training gyms'.
Do we have those who want to learn to fight...certainly and we have several fighters - amateur and pros however the greater percentage of those training with us train for reasons other than being able to fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do not all those reasons at least fall under the veneer of learning to fight though? Otherwise why punches and kicks? Why blocks? Why footwork?

You must admit these things are purposeful activities that don't make a lot of sense with that veneer stripped away.

Most people don't want to learn how to fight. Even when they say that they do. most people in love with the idea of fighting.. They imagine themselves as fighte.

 

[Martial D]

I don't think it's futile to separate them - Billy Blanks did a good job of that with Tae Bo.

Billy Blanks..

You mean that guy that cut his chops as...a professional fighter? That guy?

 

[Martial D]

Well, must be they are lying to me about not being interested in fighting and aren't interested in sparring but only wanting a good physical workout.
Sure we utilizing fighting techniques and actions for the workout but for them it isn't about fighting but a hard workout. We have a few who aren't real crazy about the punching and kicking but say they prefer working out with us because of the positive environment, the emphasis on proper techniques, and the encouragement they get with us compared to other 'fitness kickboxing, crossfit, or weight training gyms'.
Do we have those who want to learn to fight...certainly and we have several fighters - amateur and pros however the greater percentage of those training with us train for reasons other than being able to fight.

I didn't argue against any of that.

What I am arguing is that martial arts..their primary purpose..is fighting. Even the fitness moms are still throwing punches and kicks.(sort of)

 

[Steve]

I think many in Aikido don't realize the gaps in their training. Those training it after or with another art are learning useful skill, but I think much of it is only useful when a foundation is built with something else.

Just to clarify, I am using aikido as a placeholder, and not trying to call out aikido alone. I agree that many martial arts dont realize their gaps. I would say further that the more invested in a style one becomes through tenure and rank, the more intentional this gap becomes. Said the other way, as folks gain rank and longevity in an art, they become more entrenched in the propaganda of that art, and less receptive to contrary information.

 

[drop bear]

I, for one, would be completely nonplussed if a person told me they were taking up any activity, yet had no intention of improving at it. This would be true for not only physical activities like the martial arts, running or tennis, but for everything from video gaming to needlepoint and knitting.

The questions then, relate not only to personal motivation for doing an activity, but to how much one wishes to improve. This will depend upon their physical and mental abilities and deficits, along with their ability to dedicate time and resources, along with handling the other priorities in their life. Priorities can change dramatically over time, as well. A martial arts journey, like any other, doesn't take place in a vacuum where it can travel a straight and orderly path.

For instance, in my own case, I initially took up a martial art in 1991, when my Reserve Unit was activated and I was at Ft. Sam Houston during Desert Storm. I was working out and running, and was as fit as I've been in life, but much of that was done during regular PT. I was going stir crazy during my off duty hours and a civilian I worked with suggested I take some lessons at his dojo. I did, and enjoyed myself, and got rid of a lot of stress for the three months or so I took lessons. The sensei suggested if I wanted to continue in martial arts, to look for a Kenpo dojo when I got back home.

Once I finished college and located where I live now, I looked up a Kenpo dojo (conveniently, one of the only dojos in town at the time) and began training again. It was great stress relief while in law school and as a young assistant prosecutor. I also enjoyed the discipline, learning new skills and knowledge, and more. I progressed fairly rapidly until two daughters, career responsibilities, and the National Guard started intervening. On the cusp of training for my black belt, my frustration level, and that of my instructor, were such that I decided a break was in order. As I have mentioned, I am only now getting back to it after many years. How good was I when I was training regularly? I can only say once I was a brown belt, I could spar effectively against others who competed regularly at tournaments, as well as two who fought and did well in NASKA and internationally.

The above isn't intended to speak of or brag about myself, but to point out a few things, using the best example I know. People enter the arts for a variety of reasons, often having nothing to do with lifestyle change. Taking the step does mean they likely don't wish to be stagnant in their involvement, but wish to make some progress. Once they do, their priorities can indeed change over time, for a number of usually legitimate reasons.

The OP of course in this case was told his motivation was wrong.

Which happens a bit.

People have come on this forum and asked the question what martial art for self defense. And been told their reasons for doing martial arts is wrong.

I don't think anyone has come in and asked for the most fun martial arts and been corrected.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most people don't want to learn how to fight. Even when they say that they do. most people in love with the idea of fighting.. They imagine themselves as fighte.

I think there's a lot of truth in that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Billy Blanks..

You mean that guy that cut his chops as...a professional fighter? That guy?

Yes. That's my point, though you apparently thought my point was something different. His Tae Bo was for people who weren't interested in learning to fight, but wanted some of the same fitness benefits of his fight-oriented training. So he took the punches and kicks and took the fight out of them.

 

[drop bear]

Most people don't want to learn how to fight. Even when they say that they do. most people in love with the idea of fighting.. They imagine themselves as fighte.

Mabye the people who say they do. Really do.

We get a lot of those guys. Who even just want to do one to see if they can.