Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by geezer, Jun 13, 2017.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There is so much money expertise and resources thrown at the sport. It is like wondering why Australians are good at swimming. Or Brazilians at soccer.

    A top line MMA gym wil have specialised expert coaches in different fields. Which they can do because being great at the sport will make you rich.

    Coaches - Integrated MMA Brisbane Australia
     
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  2. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    $10,000,000 to $25,000,000 a year is rich. Even a couple million a year is good. How rich do you consider rich? I didn't see anybody in MMA even mentioned when I looked up top sports contracts.

    List of largest sports contracts - Wikipedia

    Now a few top MMA guys like Connor McGregor are doing really well, with McGregor having a career total of over $9,000,000 -- but top boxers had purses that big for a single championship fight ...way back in the 70s!!!

    UFC Career Fighter Earnings | MMA Manifesto

    Considering how tough MMA is, and how short a fighters career might be, I'd say you'd have to do it for love, not money.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
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  3. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I like and appreciate what you do, I like discussing it, too. But that's not why I quoted your post. You used the word impugn. Made my day, so love that word. :)
     
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  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The money provides opportunities. Nobody gets rich from the Olympics either.

    Well except the IOC.

    But yeah you have to be the top percent to earn from MMA.
     
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  5. Wing Chun Auckland

    Wing Chun Auckland Green Belt

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    Well, yeah, the Tai Chi guy wasn't good. I guess the gist of what I am saying is that MMA fighters are really good.
     
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  6. LFJ

    LFJ Senior Master

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    That "MMA" guy wasn't very good either. He was self-taught and missed every punch he threw until the guy tripped and he was able to punch him on the ground.

    I wouldn't say that video was a good representation of MMA or TCMA, as both guys were fake.
     
  7. Wing Chun Auckland

    Wing Chun Auckland Green Belt

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    Dont know the details, but from what I have heard the mma guy runs his own mma studio. Plus he won that fight pretty fast. You cant say that those punches werent effective. The tai chi guy didn't simply trip. He had punches raining in on him. While the tai chi guy is running back he cops one to the face and that's when he falls.
     
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  8. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

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    Your last sentence reflects something I was just thinking: why is it a concern of theirs anyway? What I mean is if I train in a style that someone else thinks sucks, what's it to them? Just keep training the style you like and forget about me! Is there really such a big gaping hole in the lives of so many people that they have to bash what other people do to get any pleasure out of life?

    If so, that's sad.
     
  9. LFJ

    LFJ Senior Master

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    I watched closely in slow-mo from various angles. None of the standing punches actually landed.

    But, you're right. I can't say they weren't effective. Could have been the wind from his fists that blew him over.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I can understand why some folks would feel interested. If an art claims to do something (like developing fighting ability), and does not, some will be interested from a "that's just not right" standpoint. Others will be interested because they feel students may be being deceived (purposely or accidentally). I can see both cases, and in egregious and obvious cases, I sometimes share their sentiments. I do think some folks invest too much of their own attention into cases that are neither so obvious nor so egregious, fretting over whether something is effective enough - a purely subjective measure. But it's their time and attention to spend as they wish, so I don't really have a problem with it most of the time.
     
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  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Actually, the punches were what caused him to backpedal, which led to him falling down. Effective, though none landed.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah. can't imagine what harm could be done.
     
  13. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    This is very true, at least for me. I certainly use WC to enter at this point (it's what I currently study after all and I find the wedging/bridging of TWC to be superior to YA) but once I am "there" and am going for control/take down, at the point of transition I just go Aiki without thinking and it works and, tbh Aiki is present in the Judo I studied, the WC and Kali I study now because Aikido was not created in a vacuum. Where Aiki fails is when you train in a way where you come to expect your opponent to just "go with the Aiki program". That doesn't happen.

    Now another issue is this. First lack of "real" self defense video. Next look at the % of people who actually study MA with a true self-defense/combative mindset. That number is ridiculously small.
     
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  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'll go a step further and say that there's an issue in expecting Aiki to be available. It's there a lot more than I would tend to use it (I've had some folks demonstrate that on me), but functionally, it's not always possible. Training to expect that severely limits the ability to recover when you miss the aiki opportunity (which I still do more than I like to admit). The push-pull and hard kuzushi in Judo (in my case, including the Judo-based portion of NGA) makes a nice counterpoint.
     
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  15. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    That is a good point. I think that I sometimes forget that Aiki doesn't = Aikido, especially Yoshinkan that still has a lot of Jujutsu left in it, and Judo of course came from Jujutsu as well.

    It's likely one of the reasons I didn't stick with Judo because I had to start from scratch and advance at the same pace as everyone else but I was saying to myself way to often, "but see, I sorta already know this." Now of course, almost 2 decades later, I understand that my Judo Sensei, as he was definitely from a traditional mold, was trying to get the Jutsu philosphy out of my head that my Yoshinkan Sensei had. The Judo Sensei wanted me to embrace Do before he advanced me to where I was technically. My 20 something self however didn't get the difference between Jutsu and Do. I was a soldier, becoming a LEO, the technical aspects were all that my mind was occupied with then...stupid kid. ;)
     
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  16. Wing Chun Auckland

    Wing Chun Auckland Green Belt

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    Yeah, the pressure from the punches and forward movement is driving the tai chi guy back. Watching in slow mo at the point where he falls over, it looks as if he could have got hit then. But can't be 100% sure.
     
  17. Wing Chun Auckland

    Wing Chun Auckland Green Belt

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    upload_2017-6-23_16-31-9.png That blurry thing in front of the tai chi guys head is the mma guys arm and fist. Straght after that the tai chi guy turns his head sideways and falls down.
     
  18. Wing Chun Auckland

    Wing Chun Auckland Green Belt

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    upload_2017-6-23_16-36-33.png upload_2017-6-23_16-38-13.png I think this is the first punch that lands. The mma guy over commits one way but and has to turn back towards the tai chi guy. You see his left arm hanging low ready to swing. Looks like it lands.
     
  19. LFJ

    LFJ Senior Master

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    Put this video at 0.25 speed at look at 1:37.

    That punch you think knocks the guy down is looping over his arm and down toward his chest. It doesn't hit his face, and his head doesn't get turned as if hit by a punch. He's already turning his body before the punch is launched.

    Better angles of the first punch you think lands are at 2:04 and 2:39. Again, watching in slow-mo, the guy's right arm comes up to shield his face. It was mostly blocked but may have made the guy's own hand hit himself in the forehead.

    None of the other punches had a chance at landing. So, if making someone hit themselves counts, that's like half a punch out of the 5 that were thrown standing.

     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It is not stylistic it is the mental games.

    I think people focus on the wrong things. So as far as I can tell. People who train for the street consider street evidence as the most important evidence.
    That is some 9-11 conspiracy stuff right there mate.

    You can hear them land.
     

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