Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[drop bear]

Just a thought that I had recently cause of all the MMA vs tai chi hype and people comparing their art to MMA. Is it actually that these other arts are ****, or is it just that MMA fighters are just so good. Maybe we are not giving them enough credit. They are excellent fighters. MMA as a whole has evolved into something pretty impressive. Fighters these days transition easily between a lot of fighting contexts. Comparing any other martial artist to an MMA fighter is a pretty high yard stick to use.

There is so much money expertise and resources thrown at the sport. It is like wondering why Australians are good at swimming. Or Brazilians at soccer.

A top line MMA gym wil have specialised expert coaches in different fields. Which they can do because being great at the sport will make you rich.

Coaches - Integrated MMA Brisbane Australia

 

[geezer]

There is so much money expertise and resources thrown at the sport. ....being great at the sport will make you rich.

$10,000,000 to $25,000,000 a year is rich. Even a couple million a year is good. How rich do you consider rich? I didn't see anybody in MMA even mentioned when I looked up top sports contracts.

List of largest sports contracts - Wikipedia

Now a few top MMA guys like Connor McGregor are doing really well, with McGregor having a career total of over $9,000,000 -- but top boxers had purses that big for a single championship fight ...way back in the 70s!!!

UFC Career Fighter Earnings | MMA Manifesto

Considering how tough MMA is, and how short a fighters career might be, I'd say you'd have to do it for love, not money.

 

[Buka]

You never really admit that you're just going from thread to thread, looking for an excuse to try to impugn what I do. And when I explain you're talking about something I don't do, or provide reasons for that being part of the practice, or show what balances it, you either change your argument or just ignore the thing you asked for and keep insisting there's a major problem with this thing you don't understand. Find a different hobby - you're being a complete goober.

I like and appreciate what you do, I like discussing it, too. But that's not why I quoted your post. You used the word impugn. Made my day, so love that word.

 

[drop bear]

$10,000,000 to $25,000,000 a year is rich. Even a couple million a year is good. How rich do you consider rich? I didn't see anybody in MMA even mentioned when I looked up top sports contracts.

List of largest sports contracts - Wikipedia

Now a few top MMA guys like Connor McGregor are doing really well, with McGregor having a career total of over $9,000,000 -- but top boxers had purses that big for a single championship fight ...way back in the 70s!!!

UFC Career Fighter Earnings | MMA Manifesto

Considering how tough MMA is, and how short a fighters career might be, I'd say you'd have to do it for love, not money.

The money provides opportunities. Nobody gets rich from the Olympics either.

Well except the IOC.

But yeah you have to be the top percent to earn from MMA.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I'm not so sure that guy in that exchange with the "Tai Chi master" was such a great example of MMA. I got the impression that an amateur MMA guy with only 1 fight under his belt would have done just as well!

It isn't that MMA fighters are so great. Its that so many TCMA guys just plain suck at fighting. Its not the style so much as it is the training method.

Well, yeah, the Tai Chi guy wasn't good. I guess the gist of what I am saying is that MMA fighters are really good.

 

[LFJ]

Well, yeah, the Tai Chi guy wasn't good. I guess the gist of what I am saying is that MMA fighters are really good.

That "MMA" guy wasn't very good either. He was self-taught and missed every punch he threw until the guy tripped and he was able to punch him on the ground.

I wouldn't say that video was a good representation of MMA or TCMA, as both guys were fake.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Dont know the details, but from what I have heard the mma guy runs his own mma studio. Plus he won that fight pretty fast. You cant say that those punches werent effective. The tai chi guy didn't simply trip. He had punches raining in on him. While the tai chi guy is running back he cops one to the face and that's when he falls.

 

[wingchun100]

Except that I don't make a lot of claims. I answer questions about how I train. I spar, I use resistance, etc. That's not really an outrageous claim - many do that. I don't know how many in Aikido do - it's less usual there, for certain, but these are not uncommon practices in MA. When someone says, "we spar with gear", I don't think, "Prove it!" I simply accept that this is a reasonable practice that happens in some places, and I have no reason to seek proof.

If I were claiming something extraordinary, that would be worth chasing me around asking for proof, perhaps. The only real claim I can remember making is that there are people who have used what I do for self-defense, bouncing, and LEO work with success. That's not the kind of thing I can go out and produce video on - it either got caught on video (and I happen to know about it) or not. I can't change that. I think that's what bothers DB. I can't produce what he most wants, because I'm not aware of any video of it. Mind you, I'm not aware of any video of someone using Savate, Sambo, or BJJ specifically in SD. I can spot some techniques from some of those in videos (as I can spot some of the techniques I train), but I'm simply not aware of video of a single-art practitioner using those to defend themselves.

I've actually made the point about the "aiki" side of Aikido not being often available (a slightly different term than "effective", for reasons I've addressed elsewhere) against a trained opponent. I've made the point that I think training only this side is an issue for that reason, and that NGA also has what I refer to as a "Judo" side. Those techniques can be easily found being used against a resisting opponent, since they actually come from Judo.

I'm not a champion of Aikido. I don't come on here to defend that group of arts. I come on here to discuss things, get and give information, etc. If someone doesn't like Aikido, I'm okay with that. But if they get a bug up their *** and start picking fights in unrelated threads because they don't think Aikido's training methods (an over-generalization that is its own problem) are effective, I don't really see why I should be responsible for their concerns.

Your last sentence reflects something I was just thinking: why is it a concern of theirs anyway? What I mean is if I train in a style that someone else thinks sucks, what's it to them? Just keep training the style you like and forget about me! Is there really such a big gaping hole in the lives of so many people that they have to bash what other people do to get any pleasure out of life?

If so, that's sad.

 

[LFJ]

Dont know the details, but from what I have heard the mma guy runs his own mma studio. Plus he won that fight pretty fast. You cant say that those punches werent effective. The tai chi guy didn't simply trip. He had punches raining in on him. While the tai chi guy is running back he cops one to the face and that's when he falls.

I watched closely in slow-mo from various angles. None of the standing punches actually landed.

But, you're right. I can't say they weren't effective. Could have been the wind from his fists that blew him over.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your last sentence reflects something I was just thinking: why is it a concern of theirs anyway? What I mean is if I train in a style that someone else thinks sucks, what's it to them? Just keep training the style you like and forget about me! Is there really such a big gaping hole in the lives of so many people that they have to bash what other people do to get any pleasure out of life?

If so, that's sad.

I can understand why some folks would feel interested. If an art claims to do something (like developing fighting ability), and does not, some will be interested from a "that's just not right" standpoint. Others will be interested because they feel students may be being deceived (purposely or accidentally). I can see both cases, and in egregious and obvious cases, I sometimes share their sentiments. I do think some folks invest too much of their own attention into cases that are neither so obvious nor so egregious, fretting over whether something is effective enough - a purely subjective measure. But it's their time and attention to spend as they wish, so I don't really have a problem with it most of the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I watched closely in slow-mo from various angles. None of the standing punches actually landed.

But, you're right. I can't say they weren't effective. Could have been the wind from his fists that blew him over.

Actually, the punches were what caused him to backpedal, which led to him falling down. Effective, though none landed.

 

[drop bear]

Your last sentence reflects something I was just thinking: why is it a concern of theirs anyway? What I mean is if I train in a style that someone else thinks sucks, what's it to them? Just keep training the style you like and forget about me! Is there really such a big gaping hole in the lives of so many people that they have to bash what other people do to get any pleasure out of life?

If so, that's sad.

Yeah. can't imagine what harm could be done.

 

[Juany118]

Oh, I agree that there's a problem. And the evidence that exists supports the assertion. But I do know people who've trained in Aiki arts and put them to use as LEO and bouncers, as well as folks who've defended themselves with them. It'd be better if there was some video so we could learn from it, and ensure we know which parts of their training helped. But the lack of that video isn't entirely surprising. There's not a lot of video of any specific martial art being used in self-defense situations. Much of what we find could belong to any of a number of arts, and some appears to belong to no art, at all.

This is very true, at least for me. I certainly use WC to enter at this point (it's what I currently study after all and I find the wedging/bridging of TWC to be superior to YA) but once I am "there" and am going for control/take down, at the point of transition I just go Aiki without thinking and it works and, tbh Aiki is present in the Judo I studied, the WC and Kali I study now because Aikido was not created in a vacuum. Where Aiki fails is when you train in a way where you come to expect your opponent to just "go with the Aiki program". That doesn't happen.

Now another issue is this. First lack of "real" self defense video. Next look at the % of people who actually study MA with a true self-defense/combative mindset. That number is ridiculously small.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is very true, at least for me. I certainly use WC to enter at this point (it's what I currently study after all and I find the wedging/bridging of TWC to be superior to YA) but once I am "there" and am going for control/take down, at the point of transition I just go Aiki without thinking and it works and, tbh Aiki is present in the Judo I studied, the WC and Kali I study now because Aikido was not created in a vacuum. Where Aiki fails is when you train in a way where you come to expect your opponent to just "go with the Aiki program". That doesn't happen.

Now another issue is this. First lack of "real" self defense video. Next look at the % of people who actually study MA with a true self-defense/combative mindset. That number is ridiculously small.

I'll go a step further and say that there's an issue in expecting Aiki to be available. It's there a lot more than I would tend to use it (I've had some folks demonstrate that on me), but functionally, it's not always possible. Training to expect that severely limits the ability to recover when you miss the aiki opportunity (which I still do more than I like to admit). The push-pull and hard kuzushi in Judo (in my case, including the Judo-based portion of NGA) makes a nice counterpoint.

 

[Juany118]

I'll go a step further and say that there's an issue in expecting Aiki to be available. It's there a lot more than I would tend to use it (I've had some folks demonstrate that on me), but functionally, it's not always possible. Training to expect that severely limits the ability to recover when you miss the aiki opportunity (which I still do more than I like to admit). The push-pull and hard kuzushi in Judo (in my case, including the Judo-based portion of NGA) makes a nice counterpoint.

That is a good point. I think that I sometimes forget that Aiki doesn't = Aikido, especially Yoshinkan that still has a lot of Jujutsu left in it, and Judo of course came from Jujutsu as well.

It's likely one of the reasons I didn't stick with Judo because I had to start from scratch and advance at the same pace as everyone else but I was saying to myself way to often, "but see, I sorta already know this." Now of course, almost 2 decades later, I understand that my Judo Sensei, as he was definitely from a traditional mold, was trying to get the Jutsu philosphy out of my head that my Yoshinkan Sensei had. The Judo Sensei wanted me to embrace Do before he advanced me to where I was technically. My 20 something self however didn't get the difference between Jutsu and Do. I was a soldier, becoming a LEO, the technical aspects were all that my mind was occupied with then...stupid kid.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I watched closely in slow-mo from various angles. None of the standing punches actually landed.

But, you're right. I can't say they weren't effective. Could have been the wind from his fists that blew him over.

Yeah, the pressure from the punches and forward movement is driving the tai chi guy back. Watching in slow mo at the point where he falls over, it looks as if he could have got hit then. But can't be 100% sure.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

That blurry thing in front of the tai chi guys head is the mma guys arm and fist. Straght after that the tai chi guy turns his head sideways and falls down.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I think this is the first punch that lands. The mma guy over commits one way but and has to turn back towards the tai chi guy. You see his left arm hanging low ready to swing. Looks like it lands.

 

[LFJ]

View attachment 20846That blurry thing in front of the tai chi guys head is the mma guys arm and fist. Straght after that the tai chi guy turns his head sideways and falls down.

View attachment 20847View attachment 20848I think this is the first punch that lands. The mma guy over commits one way but and has to turn back towards the tai chi guy. You see his left arm hanging low ready to swing. Looks like it lands.

Put this video at 0.25 speed at look at 1:37.

That punch you think knocks the guy down is looping over his arm and down toward his chest. It doesn't hit his face, and his head doesn't get turned as if hit by a punch. He's already turning his body before the punch is launched.

Better angles of the first punch you think lands are at 2:04 and 2:39. Again, watching in slow-mo, the guy's right arm comes up to shield his face. It was mostly blocked but may have made the guy's own hand hit himself in the forehead.

None of the other punches had a chance at landing. So, if making someone hit themselves counts, that's like half a punch out of the 5 that were thrown standing.

 

[drop bear]

It is not stylistic it is the mental games.

I think people focus on the wrong things. So as far as I can tell. People who train for the street consider street evidence as the most important evidence.

Put this video at 0.25 speed at look at 1:37.

That punch you think knocks the guy down is looping over his arm and down toward his chest. It doesn't hit his face, and his head doesn't get turned as if hit by a punch. He's already turning his body before the punch is launched.

Better angles of the first punch you think lands are at 2:04 and 2:39. Again, watching in slow-mo, the guy's right arm comes up to shield his face. It was mostly blocked but may have made the guy's own hand hit himself in the forehead.

None of the other punches had a chance at landing. So, if making someone hit themselves counts, that's like half a punch out of the 5 that were thrown standing.

That is some 9-11 conspiracy stuff right there mate.

You can hear them land.