Is there really a solution?

[muayThaiPerson]

I was in a knife seminar in a TKD gym in Koreatown, Los Angles, CA. They were calling up volunteers to stab the sensie witha rubber knife. Many times the instructor got stabbed. SO i was wondering if knife arts are really practical and has anyone ever been attacked by a knife? What was you primary goal? To graba weapon? To grab the knife? Run?

 

[arnisador]

I've been attacked by a knife.

In my opinion, the training just raises your odds. Being up against a knife is a tough situation.

 

[muayThaiPerson]

Kaly I think. Somthing like that. Its longer. like tiki-tiki kaly?

 

[arnisador]

I don't place the substyle though. Could it have been pekiti tersia?

 

[Elfan]

Sorry just had to post it:

www.jkd-kbh.dk/video/karate.wmv

So funny.

 

[Mormegil]

Check the thread on "discussion of techniques"

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6515&perpage=15&pagenumber=9

start at page 9 for the knife stuff

IMHO, an art that emphasises knife work may give you a better chance than one that merely teaches knife defense. There's no garauntees of course.

 

[Lyfeenz]

Being up against an opponent with a knife is pretty serious buisness. Training will help the most , just try to protect your vitals. Get some knife training , some kali or other FMA forms are a good start , for me , one move comes to mind first . Run.
It may sound sissy , but it could save your life against an opponent who could care less about his own.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
I was in a knife seminar in a TKD gym in Koreatown, Los Angles, CA. They were calling up volunteers to stab the sensie witha rubber knife. Many times the instructor got stabbed. SO i was wondering if knife arts are really practical and has anyone ever been attacked by a knife? What was you primary goal? To graba weapon? To grab the knife? Run?

Does training in boxing mean you'll never get hit?

Nope. It just means that you'll get hit less and, hopefully, be able to protect yourself from getting hit in a really bad spot.

Same is true with a knife. It makes you aware of what the knife can do and gives you an advantage. But there are no guarantees.

As PG Edgar Sulite put it, "In a knife fight, there are three possible outcomes: he's better than you, you die; you're better than him, he dies; you're about the same, you both die. 2 out of 3, you're dead."

Now, that's something of an oversimplification because luck, situation, and environmental factors can also influence the outcome. But the 2/3 chances of dying is probably pretty accurate. Especially if you're unarmed which is the most likely circumstance.

But training can help tip the odds in your favor of landing in that 1/3 zone. You'll probably have to get medical attention ASAP to survive. But you'll have survived the fight.

This is why awareness and avoidance are such important aspects. Not just against a knife. But against Mexican Judo - "judo n't know if I gotta gun; judo n't know if I gotta knife." (this is the punch line to a joke I once heard ... it's much funnier when you hear it from a Mexican).

Mike

 

[moromoro]

NO, THERE IS NO REAL EMPTY HANDED KNIFE DEFENSE.....

the only good thing these techniques do is give you the confidense and the right mentality when it comes to a real life or death situation,,

it also has to be remembered contrarary to popular belief by our filipino american friends, the knife is not a primary weapon in eskrima.....

in fact it is considered by some masters as a girls weapon....
you grab your knife and ill grab my yakkal garrote man its too easy no matter how great a knife fighter you are,
better yet knife boy take your knife and ill grab my pinuti now we are talking, or how about trying to take a kenjutsu master with a knife,,,,,?????

as you can see considering the knife as some sort of great weapon is wrong the top of the chain are fire arms then swords then sticks, arrows even weighted cadena however order you want but below the this weapons chain is the knife.......


terry

 

[Kingston]

i think moromoro is wrong about the empty hand knife defence.

There are way's to defend from knife attacks safely with empty hands. Of course nothing will make you immune to being stabed by a knife. I dont think there is any reason why knife vs knife is any safer, or would have a hight succes then empty hand vs knife.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by moromoro
NO, THERE IS NO REAL EMPTY HANDED KNIFE DEFENSE.....

I wouldn't go that far. I know too many people who have effectively defended themselves against a knife wielding attacker.

the only good thing these techniques do is give you the confidense and the right mentality when it comes to a real life or death situation,,

I would agree that this is one of the benefits, but not the only one.

in fact it is considered by some masters as a girls weapon....
you grab your knife and ill grab my yakkal garrote man its too easy no matter how great a knife fighter you are,
better yet knife boy take your knife and ill grab my pinuti now we are talking, or how about trying to take a kenjutsu master with a knife,,,,,?????

Very true. If you know the guy has a knife. If you know you're about to get into a fight. Otherwise, you're just as dead.

As far as it being a "girl's weapon" ... you're just as dead.

as you can see considering the knife as some sort of great weapon is wrong the top of the chain are fire arms then swords then sticks, arrows even weighted cadena however order you want but below the this weapons chain is the knife.......

Every weapon is king in some environment. Firearms are only good if you have ammo. Swords are only good if you have the time and room to draw them. Arrows are only good if you've got the range to draw, knock, and fire them. Whatever it is, there's always a situation where a given weapon won't be the best option. Conversely, there's always a situation where a given weapon will be the best.

Mike

 

[moromoro]

of course you have greater success if you are defending against empty hands against knife if you are fighting someone with no knife skills....
but if you fight someone with experience there is no defense against knife, if someone knows how to use the knife and can see that you are weaponless he WILL CUT YOU....

In cebu and zamboanga we have an old system of knife fighting especially made if you have the knife and your opponent is empty handed, this is the payong system, or simply called payong,

there is no empty handed defense against knife if there is a adequet system of empty hands defense against knife why dont they demonstrate against real knife,,,,
see there is no real empty hands defense against a knife,
IF THERE IS PROVE IT

 

[moromoro]

Is there really a solution?

THAT DEPENDS ON THE ATTACKERS SKILL,

If he is a master NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO ARM YOURSELF ALSO, My master once beat two guys in quezon city who attacked him with a knifes, he had a ball pen and yes there was witnesses...

so in final there is a solution if you are empty handed but it is very very very minimal, maybe less than 1% i guess better than notthing.

 

[moromoro]

palusut

I wouldn't go that far. I know too many people who have effectively defended themselves against a knife wielding attacker.

yes every body can win the lottery once twice and even 3 times,

but can i ask you this do you know anybody who has successful defended himself empty handed against a knife attack more than 8 times and also where these knife attackers known for there skill????
you have a chance if they are street thugs, but still this is minimal,

in any weapons defense your chances are minimal, this is the truth but people who run schools dont want you to know this,,,

 

[Seigi]

I agree with Arnisador & Pesilat.

Your odds are increased, but of course your best defense is to either get the upper hand with a bigger or more powerful weapon.

Or RUN!

Peace

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by moromoro
palusut

I wouldn't go that far. I know too many people who have effectively defended themselves against a knife wielding attacker.

yes every body can win the lottery once twice and even 3 times,

but can i ask you this do you know anybody who has successful defended himself empty handed against a knife attack more than 8 times and also where these knife attackers known for there skill????
you have a chance if they are street thugs, but still this is minimal,

in any weapons defense your chances are minimal, this is the truth but people who run schools dont want you to know this,,,

First, I wrote the post you're responding to, but I'm not "palusut" ... that's another guy

Second, everything you're saying is accurate ... but how many times are you going to be attacked by a "master?" How many times are you going to be attacked by a person who has any knife training?

Generally, you're going to be attacked by a "street thug" (that is, after all, the definition of "street thug," right?).

Against a good knifer, most of us wouldn't have a chance even if we weren't empty-handed.

Mike

 

[moromoro]

sorry pesilat (the names are similar)

because iam from the philippines we where never trained to fight a common attacker with a knife we always trained as if the attacker would have skill.
Also the filipino way is to always use a weapon even if your attacker is empty handed, in the majority of domestic disputes inthe Philippines one will almost always pull out a weapon, i.e sundang, itak, pinuti or even knife
one thing bothers me about your last statement
"Against a good knifer, most of us wouldn't have a chance even if we weren't empty-handed".

the only time he would have the advantage over you is if you also had a knife or empty hand as i said before pull out your bahi, yakkal, kamagong garrote better yet bladed weapons, pinuti, sundang....to teach the knife sucker some respect...

in the philippines contrarary to popular belief there where (are) very few pure knife fighters, this is because they would never ever challenge a eskrimadore in a bladed duel with the eskrimador holding a pinuti and the knifer a knife... they where never feared
IN THE PAST FEW YEARS PEOPLE IN AMERICA HAVE OVERESTIMATED KNIFE FIGHTING SOMETHING SERIOUS,
We simply laugh about this back home........

terry

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by moromoro
sorry pesilat (the names are similar)

Not a problem

the only time he would have the advantage over you is if you also had a knife or empty hand as i said before pull out your bahi, yakkal, kamagong garrote better yet bladed weapons, pinuti, sundang....to teach the knife sucker some respect...

in the philippines contrarary to popular belief there where (are) very few pure knife fighters, this is because they would never ever challenge a eskrimadore in a bladed duel with the eskrimador holding a pinuti and the knifer a knife... they where never feared

You're talking about "dueling" ... that's not fighting. That's sparring (even if it's lethal in nature). I'm talking about the guy with the knife who walks up behind his victim and stabs him in the kidney, then takes the victim's wallet and walks away.

As far as defending against this guy, I'm talking about the knifer missing the kidney and hitting the belt or just grazing and the victim having a chance to turn around and fight. In this type of scenario (which is much more likely than two people squaring off with weapons), there's no chance for the defender to get a weapon of any sort, even to draw his pinuti.

IN THE PAST FEW YEARS PEOPLE IN AMERICA HAVE OVERESTIMATED KNIFE FIGHTING SOMETHING SERIOUS,
We simply laugh about this back home........

I think that has more to do with cultural differences. Here in America, the knife (or other cutting/stabbing implement) is among the most dangerous of weapons one can realistically expect to encounter. Not many people running around the US with swords or machetes (much less bolos, barongs, pinutes, kampilans, etc.)

If anything, I think much of the American populace underestimates what a knife can do.

Mike

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi all:

I will agree with Moro Moro to a point. In my experience, all things being equal, if you have an equally skilled empty hand fighter against an equally skilled knifer, I think the empty hand person will lose every time.

My reasoning on this is simple, the gross motor movement and effort required in order to disable an attacker with the empty hand is much greater than that necessary with the knife. A good knife simply has to touch the opponent in order to do some damage. In panic, the person facing the knife may do more damage to himself by thrashing or pulling away violently to escape the blade. Against a skilled knifer, you will get cut, multiple times and probably seriously enough that if you don't die immediately, you will probably die if you don't get to a hospital very quickly.

That being said, I've been taught you learn empty-hand knife defense in the hope that the person you're facing doesn't really know what they are doing, which will hopefully be the case. However, if you treat every attacker as an expert (and you have good, effective training), you should be able to do the best that you can in an empty hands vs. knife situation.

My reactions to confronting a knife are in the following order:

1. Run - if at all possible. There is no honor being face down in the gutter or face up in a hospital bed with HIV, Tetanus, etc... just because some fool wants to use a knife on you. Run away!

2. Try to create an opening or distraction to either run or get the situation or my advantage if I'm stuck.

3. Fight for my life with every means at my disposal until the attacker is disabled and I can escape to a safe distance as soon as possible. When someone draws a knife on you, you have to assume that they mean to kill you. Anyone who learns good knife-fighting technique or has faced a knife down/been cut before knows that it is a serious, life-threatening emergency and should be dealt with as such. Note that escape as soon as possible bit is important as trained martial artists can end up as the murderers in these situations if you continue to stomp the attacker's head to a bloody pulp on the sidewalk after both his legs and knife arm are broken, he/she's unconcious and you have the opportunity to escape. If you can get out, do so as soon as possible.

Just my opinions on the subject, but I do agree with parts of what everyone has said so far. The worst thing you can do if attacked by a knife is to just give up. In my opinion, if you're going to go down, it's always better to go down fighting. It might make the difference between life and death in this situation.

Itotally agree with Mr. Castro and his post above. Most people in the US have been fooled by movies where the knifer gets the blade kicked from his hand or disarmed simply since it is "just a knife". The movie 'The Hunted' may change that perception somewhat (High Art/Exposure is little known except among folks like us nowadays). As for laughing about the knife as a gir'ls weapon in the PI, I find that a little hard to believe if you don't have a longer blade or yantok/baston available to you when you face it.

Good discussion!

Thanks,

Richard Curren

 

[moromoro]

interesting views... alot lack realism though

i agree and this is what everybody should be thinking, if someone catches you offguard and he has a knife you have to be ready to fight for your life be prepared for the worst if you have trained properly hopefully you have a chance...and another thing today we may also come across syringes which may be used as weapons.........


You're talking about "dueling" ... that's not fighting. That's sparring

pesilat, my friend there is a big difference between sparring and dueling, most "duels" in the P.I today occured from fueds or after a few rounds of tuba or san miguel also gambling, because the houses are so close together people run in and grab there bladed weapons (if they own guns they grab these first).... i have been unlucky enough to witness this on 3 occasions......


As for laughing about the knife as a gir'ls weapon in the PI, I find that a little hard to believe

Emptyglass

well believe it
why don't you see knifers specialising in knife challenge eskrimadors, we are a bladed culture but the knife is a sister weapon to its more effective bladed brothers.... also in espada y daga the knife is always held in the weak hand (left) you dont hear of it beign called daga y espada dont you....
Knifes are fun dont get me wrong but for us true Eskrimadores we wont base our training on the knife.....we dont belive in wasting that much time on it particularly when you can still improve your garrote skills and also yr skills with longer bladed weapons..
this is why people laugh at arts which spacialise with the knife...especially knife to knife can you see how ridiculous this is???