Is there much empty hand technique in Ninjitsu? If so whats it like?

[cpthindsight]

Is it like Karate or jujitsu?

Is ninjitsu basically dead or have the techniques been preserved well?

 

[Drose427]

Is it like Karate or jujitsu?

Is ninjitsu basically dead or have the techniques been preserved well?

The one Ninjitsu guy Ive met moved nothing like Karate, he had some grappling that probably come from JJJ but idk where the grappling/strikes in Ninjitsu come from so i cant say for sure.

I simply dont know enough about the history of the two and how they played into each other

His empty hands were just fine, and he was quicker than the MT guys that were at the tournament.

But ive been told his methods didnt sound like normal Ninjitsu here,

Chris Parker will probably have a good bit to say about this, he know his stuff. But it may be a bit before he responds.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Depends on what you mean by "ninjutsu."

If you are referring to arts practiced by folks like the late Ron Duncan, they are modern creations with no actual link to historical ninjutsu. (Despite claims to the contrary by their practitioners.) As such they contain unarmed elements from whatever arts their founder had previously practiced - typically some form of karate, judo or aikido.

If you are referring to the arts practiced within the Bujinkan and its various offshoots (Genbukan, Jinenkan, Akban, etc), then it gets a bit more complicated. These organizations teach a curriculum made up from 9 different arts which can be traced back to Toshitsugu Takamatsu. Of those 9 arts, 3 are identified as forms of ninjutsu. Also, of those 9 arts, 3 can be historically verified as going back further than Takamatsu. However the 3 that are verified historical arts are not the 3 ninjutsu traditions.

Does that mean that Takamatsu made up the 6 remaining lineages (including the ninjutsu traditions)? Not necessarily. We can be fairly sure that the claimed history of these arts has been exaggerated. Togakure Ryu is almost certainly not 800 years old. Still, such exaggeration is not unheard of in historical arts. The best we can say is that the Takamatsuden arts may or may not have some connection to historical ninjutsu.

Despite the fact that the ninjutsu arts (even if historically legitimate) only make up 3 out of the 9 Takamatsuden arts, the system as a whole was for a while marketed as "ninjutsu" and some practitioners still use the name to describe what they practice. The Takamatsuden arts do include quite a bit of unarmed combat techniques, both striking and grappling. Chris Parker could tell you which techniques actually derive from one of the claimed ninjutsu lineages vs one of the other traditions.

Here are some examples:

 

[cpthindsight]

Depends on what you mean by "ninjutsu."

If you are referring to arts practiced by folks like the late Ron Duncan, they are modern creations with no actual link to historical ninjutsu. (Despite claims to the contrary by their practitioners.) As such they contain unarmed elements from whatever arts their founder had previously practiced - typically some form of karate, judo or aikido.

If you are referring to the arts practiced within the Bujinkan and its various offshoots (Genbukan, Jinenkan, Akban, etc), then it gets a bit more complicated. These organizations teach a curriculum made up from 9 different arts which can be traced back to Toshitsugu Takamatsu. Of those 9 arts, 3 are identified as forms of ninjutsu. Also, of those 9 arts, 3 can be historically verified as going back further than Takamatsu. However the 3 that are verified historical arts are not the 3 ninjutsu traditions.

Does that mean that Takamatsu made up the 6 remaining lineages (including the ninjutsu traditions)? Not necessarily. We can be fairly sure that the claimed history of these arts has been exaggerated. Togakure Ryu is almost certainly not 800 years old. Still, such exaggeration is not unheard of in historical arts. The best we can say is that the Takamatsuden arts may or may not have some connection to historical ninjutsu.

Despite the fact that the ninjutsu arts (even if historically legitimate) only make up 3 out of the 9 Takamatsuden arts, the system as a whole was for a while marketed as "ninjutsu" and some practitioners still use the name to describe what they practice. The Takamatsuden arts do include quite a bit of unarmed combat techniques, both striking and grappling. Chris Parker could tell you which techniques actually derive from one of the claimed ninjutsu lineages vs one of the other traditions.

Here are some examples:

Thanks for the excellent answer, so basically ninjutsu is dead. Watered down technique form years ago that doesn't even = the authentic ninjitsu doesnt count.

 

[elder999]

Thanks for the excellent answer, so basically ninjutsu is dead. Watered down technique form years ago that doesn't even = the authentic ninjitsu doesnt count.

Oooh, boy.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Like Elder999 I do not even know where to go with this after your last response!

 

[Drose427]

Thanks for the excellent answer, so basically ninjutsu is dead. Watered down technique form years ago that doesn't even = the authentic ninjitsu doesnt count.

Thats really not what tony said...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks for the excellent answer, so basically ninjutsu is dead. Watered down technique form years ago that doesn't even = the authentic ninjitsu doesnt count.

Well, that's not at all what I said, but whatever makes you happy.

 

[Tez3]

My daughter bought me a popcorn maker, it's switched on.................... going to enjoy this one.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, that's not at all what I said, but whatever makes you happy.

He or she (not sure which) is a young kid who is simply being a troll...that is all... every post is basically the same.... don't feed the troll

 

[Drose427]

My daughter bought me a popcorn maker, it's switched on.................... going to enjoy this one.

Wheres Chris Parker when we need him most?!

 

[Chris Parker]

Watching Avengers… but, as the OP is banned now, I'll only enter if others are after more answers…

 

[Tez3]

Oh well, as that's the case can anyone tell me how to flavour the popcorn after it's made please?

 

[K-man]

Oh well, as that's the case can anyone tell me how to flavour the popcorn after it's made please?

Butter will do that.

 

[Tez3]

Butter will do that.

Cheers! I will have to make some to make up for the disappointment of not reading a good rebuttal by Chris. Always like a good rebuttal!

 

[Hanzou]

Is it like Karate or jujitsu?

Is ninjitsu basically dead or have the techniques been preserved well?

It definitely isn't dead, since there's people practicing it, and adding things to it.

As for being watered down, I will say that some major organizations pumping out 15 degree black belts isn't a very promising sign. Also, some of the grappling I've seen has been..... questionable.

That said, the in-fighting within the art is legendary, and will reach critical mass when Hatsumi retires or dies.

 

[chris66]

I can recommend Uechi Ryu Karate if you want good hand techniques.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

We can be fairly sure that the claimed history of these arts has been exaggerated. Togakure Ryu is almost certainly not 800 years old. Still, such exaggeration is not unheard of in historical arts. The best we can say is that the Takamatsuden arts may or may not have some connection to historical ninjutsu.

I think historical exaggerations have been around as long as martial arts.
If Bob, down the street, dabbled in a couple arts over the years. Then decided he knows better and creates his own martial art, it's unlikely many students would train if they knew he made it all up and gave himself his 11th dan. So he "stretches the truth" a bit, to make it sound legitimate and keep people training. He'll say the origins are hundreds of years old, and he's just updated it a little. If any of those students continue the "art", the stories pass down and get exaggerated too. It's possible, Bob-do will become legendary in the future.
Hundreds of years ago, when many of our original arts were created, I'm sure something similar happened. The founders of each may have been amazingly skilled fighters... or someone like Bob. Hard to say anymore.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think historical exaggerations have been around as long as martial arts.
If Bob, down the street, dabbled in a couple arts over the years. Then decided he knows better and creates his own martial art, it's unlikely many students would train if they knew he made it all up and gave himself his 11th dan. So he "stretches the truth" a bit, to make it sound legitimate and keep people training. He'll say the origins are hundreds of years old, and he's just updated it a little. If any of those students continue the "art", the stories pass down and get exaggerated too. It's possible, Bob-do will become legendary in the future.
Hundreds of years ago, when many of our original arts were created, I'm sure something similar happened. The founders of each may have been amazingly skilled fighters... or someone like Bob. Hard to say anymore.

Yep, just about every art I've ever trained in has had been rife with historical myths - exaggerations, spin, and outright fabrications - and that's just what I've been able to discover through amateur research over the years. If I had a time machine to go back and check the stories that are told, I'm sure I'd find a lot more.

It's not hugely important from a practical application standpoint, but I like to learn as much of the real history as possible,

BTW - I took a look at your website. I recognize a couple of the instructors from years past. I knew Jaye Sandhu from when were both training under Shawn Havens, Larry Turner, et al in the late 80s. I know Sam Foster from the SCA, although I think I had moved away from training in the Bujinkan before he started.

 

[Chris Parker]

I think historical exaggerations have been around as long as martial arts.
If Bob, down the street, dabbled in a couple arts over the years. Then decided he knows better and creates his own martial art, it's unlikely many students would train if they knew he made it all up and gave himself his 11th dan. So he "stretches the truth" a bit, to make it sound legitimate and keep people training. He'll say the origins are hundreds of years old, and he's just updated it a little. If any of those students continue the "art", the stories pass down and get exaggerated too. It's possible, Bob-do will become legendary in the future.

Hmm… that's a bit different to what's being discussed, though…

Hundreds of years ago, when many of our original arts were created,

… were they?

I'm sure something similar happened.

See, I'm less convinced that anything like "Bob" happened the way you described above… as, if it did, then "Bob" was named Takamatsu Toshitsugu… for the record…

The founders of each may have been amazingly skilled fighters... or someone like Bob. Hard to say anymore.

Eh, not so hard when you understand the surrounding contexts…

It's not hugely important from a practical application standpoint, but I like to learn as much of the real history as possible,

This, I'd disagree with… particularly when it comes to classical arts, I find that it's very difficult to grasp the (intended) application without having a good understanding of the history (claimed or otherwise).