Is my brother putting too much stress on kids

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by quasar44, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. quasar44

    quasar44 Brown Belt

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    His 2 oldest kids
    Girl- 7
    Boy - only 5
    Both very coordinated , smart and coordinated but very small

    He wants them to join this new gym that has a class that is no-BJJ and some wrestling

    the problem is the boy is 45 ibs
    The class is 6-12 ages

    i am nervous the kids may get hurt and imagine being half the size
     
  2. quasar44

    quasar44 Brown Belt

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    It would be like having me go into the pro mma class

    I do it all but only beg and internediate classes
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Not sure what 'no BJJ' is but any class depends on what the instructor is teaching and how they teach, plus if the class is from ages 6 upwards they may not take him until he is 6.
    The size thing doesn't matter as much as the child's mindset, if you wait for him to 'grow into' martial arts physically you could wait a very long time. Size doesn't matter nearly as much as people think especially in ground styles.
    It's all going to be down to the way the instructor teaches, the classes shouldn't be about size and strength but techniques. 'Big' people need to learn to use technique against smaller people rather than muscling in because when pitched against people of the same size and strength they then have an advantage. The larger 12 year old will certainly be able to beat the smaller 6 year old with the strength they have over a much smaller and younger child but they learn nothing by doing that so a good instructor makes sure that strength and size isn't used but technique all the way. All students will gain this way. This way too injuries are limited and the students learn far more.

    I don't think there's any comparison to you taking a pro MMA class, as the premise of technique, technique, techniques is certainly the mantra in them, the conditioning classes though would certainly be very vigorous though. Pro MMA classes shouldn't be about thumping each other into next week nor KOs, there certainly would be a higher knowledge of techniques and probably would be faster moving because of that but other than it's not MMA fighting every class.
     
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  4. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    When I started wrestling, I was only 63 pounds, and the smallest weight class was 78 and under. I still did it. I lost every match and it wasn't even close. The nice thing about wrestling is it tends to be one of the less injury-prone arts, because any time you get into any unsafe position the fight gets stopped and you go into referee position. The younger the kid starts, the more experience he'll have and the more natural things will be.

    However, this is a different question than if the guy is putting too much stress on the kids, and it's something we can't answer based on the post. That depends on how much they want to do martial arts and how much he pushes them at it.
     
  5. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    I cant imagine there would be a issue, unless he is teaching, or the instructor is overly competive. Only some emotional strain if the child doesnt succeed and i think some instrctors put that right? I think plenty would defend somone in said situation. edit: if said people are over competitive


    Oh i just realised. Nothing was eleborated enough for me to 100% state anyone was getting a lot of pressure put on them to succede, that was a big presumption from the titile. But it shouldnt be a issue unless something like that is happening. they dont immediately start you off with death matches with people who have been doing it for 10 years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  6. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Green Belt

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    I agree with most of the others. The only two questions I'd have are 1) do the kids want to take grappling classes? 2) is the instructor good with kids? If the answer to both of those is yes then I don't think there are any worries.
     
  7. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    I tentatively agree with #1. Sometimes you make kids take martial arts even if they don't want to, because they need that environment to build up their confidence or discipline (or both). My nephew absolutely didn't want to take Taekwondo, even after I started teaching, even after his grandma and grandpa got their black belts. But after the upteenth time of him being a little brat, my sister said "it's not up to you any more, you're taking Taekwondo." He actually ended up enjoying the class, and his attitude got a lot better.

    We have had quite a few students that don't really want to be there, but it's good for them and so their parents make them.
     
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  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I totally disagree with that, children will only learn a false sense of confidence designed to fool whoever is sending them to classes. Children need to learn self discipline not obeying orders.

    Bottom line if you don't make adults attend martial arts classes why would you make children take them when there are plenty of other activities they can do that will build confidence and self discipline, where the child attends willingly and learns better because they want to do it. As they say in the military one volunteer is worth ten pressed men. So many parents take the easy way out of bringing up their children, sending them to martial arts can be that easy way instead of bringing them up so they grow in confidence instead of having none then employing someone to 'give' it to them. Self discipline is the parents responsibility, they shouldn't palm it off. I won't teach anyone, child or adult that doesn't want to be in my classes. I won't aide and abet lazy parents.
     
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  9. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Because children and adults are different. There are lots of things you make kids do that they don't want to do. Things like go to school, eat healthy, do their chores.

    Most of our parents are actively involved in their kids lives. When they bring them to class they observe the classes and figure out how to best help their kid practice at home.

    You're trying to make these parents sound like lazy monsters, but they're not.
     
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  10. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    We don't 'make' children eat healthy or do chores, we bring them up by our example, you all eat healthily, your all do your fair share of the chores that need doing. You aren't racist or homophobic, you don't body shame people, you make sure you do mitzvahs not because we must but because we should etc etc. so that's how your children grow up. It's called leading by example something that the military too encourages funnily enough.

    Children aren't the same as adults, they don't usually have the freedom to say they don't want to do something and be listened to. Yes they should be doing activities, take the time to find the right one for your child don't throw them into a martial arts class because you think it will instil discipline in the one or two hours a week they are there as opposed to the days, weeks and months they are with their parents. Parents teach their children to dress, talk and use the toilet why would they entrust someone else to teach them 'discipline' and why would a child be brought up without making sure they are confident? Yes have someone teach the maths, science etc but not an activity like discipline.

    Discipline is so often in martial arts extolled as this great virtue when in really it means shut up and do as you are told or you'll get press ups. A disciplined child as opposed to a child with self discipline.


    Yep so you spend the next lesson undoing the parents teaching, great.

    No, I'm saying they are buying into the myth of martial arts ( and actually paying money for it). It's their job to teach their child self discipline and to make sure they grow up to be confident, well rounded human beings who can question the world and do some good. The parents are abdicating their responsibilities in the mistaken belief that forcing children into something that may well damage confidence and lead to resentment is good for them and that as adults they always 'know best'.

    The children who get the best out of martial arts are those who love being there and train willingly, that's self descipline. Those who are forced don't learn that, they learn that they have to shut up in class and keep their misery to themselves, they smile and go through the motions because they have to. Is that worth teaching?
     
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  11. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Based on this post it sounds like you've never met a kid.

    It doesn't matter what's on your plate. Your kid only wants to eat the parts of the meal that they want to eat. I've seen tantrums where the kid refuses to eat anything except one item on his plate, even though the rest of us at the table are eating something else.

    You really think that if you do your chores, a kid will do theirs without being made to? My parents did their chores. I fought with them constantly about not doing mine. My sister does her chores. She fought with my nephew constantly about doing his. Kids forget, don't care, or simply don't want to do things.

    Maybe you have kids and you got lucky with the ones that will just eat what they're given and do the chores they're told to. But that's not my experience that I remember from when I was a kid, it's not the experience I've seen in other people raising kids. And it's not because they don't set a good example. It's because kids have developing brains and would make bad decisions unless those decisions were made for them.

    Most kids today if you let them make their own choices would sit at home all day, eating junk food and playing video games. And I mean "all day" because they wouldn't go to school. Kids need boundaries and structure, and some of that isn't optional.
     
  12. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    From my experience the kids who don't want to be there just screw around and don't put any effort in and just spoil it for the people who want to be there because the instructors have to keep telling off the kids who have 0 interest. So by forcing kids to do it you're wasting the instructors time, the other kids training time and your own kids free time where they could be doing an activity they actually want to do. Yes take your kid to a couple classes but if they hate it then find them something else to do that they actually enjoy instead of making them do something they hate. I've got 3 kids 2 absolutely loved martial arts and stuck with it. One hated it and wanted to quit so I said sure and he ended up taking up badminton and did very well winning a number of competitions and met loads of friends and genuinely was happy doing it. That wouldn't have happened if I'd forced him to carry on doing martial arts. Yes you've got to sometimes be firm with kids but you also have to listen and there's no point making them miserable and spend their free time doing something they hate
     
  13. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    So you tell them off a couple times and then ignore them.

    We have plenty of kids at my dojang that don't want to be there. My Master has taught me plenty of ways to teach the class so that the rest of the class isn't distracted by them.
     
  14. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    What's the purpose in keeping a student who doesn't want to be there, and you are ignoring? I don't see how that benefits you or the student.
     
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  15. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Because discipline is like any other skill, it gets built up over time. If they're being disruptive then I stop them, but if the rest of the class can focus on me and ignore them, then I ignore them, too. If I call them out on it over and over again, then it gives them more attention and takes away from the rest of the class.

    I have a fellow student who is a 2nd degree black belt right now. When he was a colored belt, he was an obnoxious little punk. He only wanted to participate in specific things and never wanted to do anything he thought he was too old for. We'd count during stretches, and it was a fight to get him to count with the group and he refused to do it by himself (because counting isn't fighting). He didn't really care how his forms looked. Whenever we'd do a game or obstacle course, instead of teaching fighting, he'd sit out and refuse to participate.

    Now, he's a great guy. He's still a little stubborn at times, but he does good forms, has great technique, and he's become a stellar leader. He's gone from someone that I used to loathe having in class (and who returned that sentiment), to someone who I look forward to training with and miss when he's gone. He's stellar with the kids, he's so much more patient with them than he used to be. He's great at sparring (no surprise, since that's what he really wanted to do). We had a photographer come in to take pictures this week, and he and I were partnered up for the photo shoot.

    If I had given up on this kid like I wanted to, he wouldn't be turning into the young man that he is today.
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think you have proved my point with this. His parents obviously left it to someone else to deal with the problems they caused when sending him someone he didn't want to go. How much attention did you divert from others who may have also needed some one to one attention. You say you could ignore the disruption but do you know how difficult it is for other children to do the same? How many pulled out because they couldn't stand it? How many of the quieter, shyer children felt overwhelmed because of the loud child?

    It's not school, it's a hobby/sport done for enjoyment not something that should ever become something one dreads going to. Many martial arts instructors seem to take on roles they aren't trained for, a lot of instructors aren't actually even trained to be martial arts instructors they just start teaching when they get a black belt, why would they think they are fit to not just teach martial arts but also parenting and dealing with children? How many instructors have clearances from the police to say they are cleared to even work with children let alone deal with psychological issues?

    We teach a sport which for most is a hobby, nothing more, nothing less. Many other sports offer just as much as martial arts does, and there's many, many other activities that do as well, it's time people stopped hustling martial arts as being 'special' in that it mystically teaches children to be good little people and most of all that it teaches people to defend themselves when in truth they don't even spar properly in class because no one wants to get hit.
     
  17. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    When a kid is running around the class shouting and making noises and interrupting you can't just ignore that. Ignoring them isn't teaching them anything..it's teaching them they can get away with doing what they want with no consequence.

    If I'm working with a group where one doesn't want to be there. I give them a couple of chances and tell them to do it. If they ignore me and continue to cause problems I simply say to them. Do you want to sit out? Some say no and they then put the effort some say yes. So I say okay go sit down and if you want to come back in just ask. Mostly after a few minutes the kids will ask to come in then they'll actually try but some will just stay sat out and I just leave them to it and at the end I'll tell the parent they fidnt want to do it, they weren't trying and were disrupting everyone else. At the end of the day I'm not going to waste my own time and the kids who actually want to learn on some kid who's been forced there because mommy and daddy are to lazy to actually look around for an activity for the kid wants to do.
     
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  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    A lot of instructors won't teach children because they feel they are too young and martial arts classes are often used as childcare anyway. Others see it as a source of income hence the posters advertising the guff about teaching discipline and self defence etc.

    I won't teach children under the age of 10, younger than that I feel they don't really 'get' martial arts. Certainly no black belts under at least 18 either, no 5 year olds wearing blackbelts and thinking they are ninjas. I won't teach anyone who doesn't want to be there, a waster of everyone's time frankly. I also am a Guide leader ( we do proper training and qualifications) with units aged from 5-7, 7-10 and 10-14, have been doing that for years so know what the capabilities and interests of youngsters are. Strangely no one sends kids to Guiding units when they don't want to go.
     
  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    your asking the wrong question, which should be what do the kids want to do, if they want to give it a go then thats good, if they quickly decided its not for them, then they should be able to veto going again

    parents generally have a habit of forcing kids into things they did, wish they had done or they have arbitrarily decided its convenient for them and probably good for the kid

    the kids need outside stimulation and some form of exercise/ skill actively, it matters not if thats ma, soccer, scouts, contemporary dance , art or anything really,
     
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  20. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    If I'm working with a group where one doesn't want to be there. I give them a couple of chances and tell them to do it. If they ignore me and continue to cause problems I simply say to them. Do you want to sit out? Some say no and they then put the effort some say yes. So I say okay go sit down and if you want to come back in just ask. Mostly after a few minutes the kids will ask to come in then they'll actually try but some will just stay sat out and I just leave them to it and at the end I'll tell the parent they fidnt want to do it, they weren't trying and were disrupting everyone else. At the end of the day I'm not going to waste my own time and the kids who actually want to learn on some kid who's been forced there because mommy and daddy are to lazy to actually look around for an activity for the kid wants to do.[/QUOTE]

    And we don't let them get away with it. I said we ignore them to not attract attention to them. If their actions are drawing that much attention on their own, and they've ignored our warnings, they get a punishment. Usually it's to sit outside and just watch instead of participating. And shortly after that we'll do something fun, like a game or obstacle course, that they miss out on. Sometimes they come back into class later in the class, other times they sit out the whole time. Sometimes they'll have a talk with my Master after class where he'll explain the rules and why they need to follow them. Usually their parents thank us for disciplining the kid and then when they go home they'll have talks with the kid about their behavior. (I haven't seen this but they've told me about them).

    We never present it as an option. It's always a consequence of their behavior.123
     

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