Is it possible to "train" for something that you never actually do?

[Steve]

We still have threads that distinguish between "sports" and "self defense." Whether the sub-topic is TKD or MMA or whatever, it's common to hear something along the lines of this: "Why don't you/they understand that we don't train for sport. We train to deal with multiple attackers with weapons for self defense."

The specific verbiage changes, but the message is consistent. Sport people train for sport. Other people train for other things.

My question is simply this. Can you train for something you never do? Or more accurately, can one actually become expert in something he or she has never actually done?

 

[frank raud]

Short answer, yes. Many people train, and are certified in first aid, yet never use their training. Many teachers of first aid have never used their knowledge in real life. Is it necessary to have "seen the elephant" to be able to teach? That would eliminate most weapons instructors and practically all male rape defense instructors. You can train for a scenario to the point that you are an expert in that situation.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Training for the physical part of a confrontation is entirely possible. What you can't do is train for the emotional responses.

 

[James Kovacich]

The title of the thread instantly put in my mind Doomsday Preppers. I think the notion that sport fighters can't streetfight is totally nonsense. In any case, the sport fighter is the one that is more likely to be in streetfight in my opinion...so that says enough.

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[Steve]

Short answer, yes. Many people train, and are certified in first aid, yet never use their training. Many teachers of first aid have never used their knowledge in real life. Is it necessary to have "seen the elephant" to be able to teach? That would eliminate most weapons instructors and practically all male rape defense instructors. You can train for a scenario to the point that you are an expert in that situation.

Thanks for the response.

I distinguish between someone being 'certified' and someone being an expert. For example, if we're talking about first aid certification, wouldn't you distinguish between a person who is "certified" in first aid and, say, an EMT? Or an RN who has 10 years working in an urban ER? And then, the extension of this would be, who is most competent to teach someone first aid? The person who is certified, but never applied the skills, or the EMT/ER RN who has applied the skills over and over in every possible permutation over years of practical experience?

 

[Steve]

The title of the thread instantly put in my mind Doomsday Preppers. I think the notion that sport fighters can't streetfight is totally nonsense. In any case, the sport fighter is the one that is more likely to be in streetfight in my opinion...so that says enough.

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Can you support that statement? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[Steve]

Training for the physical part of a confrontation is entirely possible. What you can't do is train for the emotional responses.

Thanks, DD. In my response to Frank Raud, I tried to be a little more clear. Do you think that one can become an expert in something he or she never actually does?

 

[Drasken]

I think it is possible, but it depends on method of training. However give me someone who has trained for years in reality based combat situations, and then someone who hasn't trained a day in their life but has survived several encounters on the street? My money goes on the survivor.

You can train all you want in the physical aspect, but it's not as easy for the emotional one. There ARE training methods that give you the same adrenaline dump, but most people don't pay attention to that.
Still, I think martial artists are underestimated in today's world. But I also think we as martial artists sometimes overestimate our abilities as well.

 

[Sukerkin]

In my art there is no option . Barring a zombie apocalypse or I get really mad at a burglar I am never going to use the skills I have trained in all these years . But, with a brush against the kata vs sparring debate, the form our training takes means that the techniques are executed precisely and at full force and extension. So if I ever have to stand kai shaku for someone I know how to do it ... whether I could bring myself to is a whole other matter.

 

[Steve]

In my art there is no option . Barring a zombie apocalypse or I get really mad at a burglar I am never going to use the skills I have trained in all these years . But, with a brush against the kata vs sparring debate, the form our training takes means that the techniques are executed precisely and at full force and extension. So if I ever have to stand kai shaku for someone I know how to do it ... whether I could bring myself to is a whole other matter.

So, then, would it be fair to say that you aren't training for combat. Rather, what you are actually training for is form?

 

[celtic_crippler]

Excellent question!

I have to agree with Frank. Being a nurse, I'm trained in many things I don't actually do on a daily basis (and some I hopefully never will!) But I can tell you from experience, when the time comes... it just kind of "switches" itself on and you go into a kind of... robo-mode... where your training takes over. It's hard to explain... but, you just do it.

Repetition in training is the key to being able to apply learned skills if needed. That is why one's training must adhere to some basic principles. In regards to martial arts, knowing one's lineage, and where their particular principles came from is an important part of understanding the answer to your question.

Do some practicioners know the "need" for a high, jumping, flying side kick? Or have you simply been repeating what's been passed down for generations? Could it be possible, that initially, that manuever was involved in the system because it was once necessary to be able to take someone off a horse? How likely is that skill-set needed today? Knowing and understanding the principles behind what it is you're doing sheds light on the practicality of one's training.

In the root system in which I train, it is believed one should constantly be evaluating their training and adapting it to today's environment. That requires actually being aware of what's going on in one's environment, and applying the principles learned to dealing with various scenarios.

That's where the dojo becomes a lab to experiment, evaluate, and analyze. Keep in mind, there's no "super-system" of martial arts. We all train for different reasons, but in terms of self-defense we can only hope to tip the odds in our favor. After all, it only takes one good shot (intentional or not) to the right target to take someone down; regardless of rank.

 

[martial sparrer]

I was just thinking this weekend that one can train and never have to use their skills. but in training martial arts you are also working on your soul and spirit and mind etc. so even if you don't use your martial skills on the battle field there are always obstacles in life where you can apply. some blackbelts tell me that they believe you MUST apply your martial skills in sparring. but so many others have said that this is untrue....ever since I started reading martial arts books and do mma exercises and do some kicking and boxing on the bag.....I have found that I am more of an effective teacher because I can deal with my conflicts and obstacles using better problem solving. my mind feels more crisp to me because I train out stress and anger and issues I dwell on

 

[Sukerkin]

So, then, would it be fair to say that you aren't training for combat. Rather, what you are actually training for is form?

Not really. Yes, perfection of form is important but the battle happens in your mind as you train.

Imagination is a very important aspect of training in any martial art but especially in the truly lethal arts where you simply cannot spar (tho' you can have some fun with bokken you still have to pull blows and that pollutes the form).

When I perform a kata, I know what the perfect form is for it (whether I can do it or not being a different matter ). I also know, with increasing experience (something we touched on in another thread recently), that many movements within the kata have different purposes depending on what the opponent does, what his posture is and where his sword is. So when you train, you imagine this opponent and what he does and how he is trying to use the techniques you know against you - because you cannot have complete freeform freedom the rules of thumb are that he is about the same size as you, he is as good (if not better) than you and that he is schooled in the same style as you. So you can, for example, allow yourself to be 'rushed' because you were too slow realising what what was happening and so what should have been a cut turns into a deflection to create an opening etc etc.

Watching Iai has been described as the martial equivalent of watching grass grow {:lol:} but the ultimate test of how 'good' someone is at the art is if an untutored bystander can 'see' your opponent in his own minds eye.

 

[arnisador]

My JKD instructor used to say that every real fight is worth 8 months of training.

 

[elder999]

When I hired on at the nuke plant, I trained regularly to do things I hoped I'd never get to do, and never did. Later, I trained people to do those things, and hoped they'd never get to them, and they never did. Could they do them? Sure, they could have, If needed....Cops train regularly to do things they hope they never do, and some never do-others, in fact, do wind up doing those things, and pretty well......at Los Alamos, I regularly practiced and trained to do things I hoped I'd never have to do. On the other hand, can one be called an "expert" in arming a nuclear weapon if they've never actually armed an deployed one? Yes. I've also managed to get through a variety of armed assaults over the years-notably, I'd never actually stabbed anyone with a pen, until I did, but I'd trained to do so.......saved my life, I think....as for the rest of it, can competition training prepare one for self-defense? Yes, on a variety of levels-the competitive trainer is more likely to get hit, or hit the ground, and having experienced that shock and worked through it might serve them well. Likewise, actually hitting someone who is trying to actually hit them. On the other hand, such training might serve someone badly, dependent upon the situation. For myself, while not exactly "sport" training, with my primary training being in karate, judo and boxing, back in the time when I was mugged-or in "fights"-that training served me pretty well most of the time-in fact, my usual advice to someone seeking self defense training for their kids is to get them into judo and boxing.....

 

[Tgace]

Hmmmm....

The thing with this question is context. Martial Arts is really just a set of skills. A rather narrow set actually. Professions like LE require a whole range of skills...some you will do daily, some you may do once, some you may never do. Same with being a soldier. That job is far more than just shooting a weapon, but that seems to be the one skill many people put the most stock in.

While I may not be an "expert cop"...I am a veteran cop. I'd say I have "expertise" in some of my job skills and passing aptitude with others.

The "thing" with martial arts is that many people seem to think they need validation through an actual fight to see if what they are learning is any good. Its a narrow skill set...I think the question most MA students need to figure out for themselves is what exactly they want to get out of it...

Id take a broad experience/training background with a smattering of expertise in a few areas over expertise at one thing only anyday.


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[Le Samourai]

I think this is a rather complicated question, and often the answer depends on the individual.

A few random thoughts and observations based on my experiences…

* It seems that few people who train for self-defense ever actually engage in hard sparring. That means they probably cannot do what they train to do. If you’ve never practiced, say, groin shots against a resistant opponent in training, you might not be able to do it in a high stress street situation.

* The above reflects on the whole "sports" vs. "self-defense" arguments. Someone who trains for sport is used to sparring, being hit, and hitting back. Someone who trains for self-defense may or may not have engaged in this sort of training. Therefore, I think the sport martial artist has an advantage in a real fight. I think the best approach is to combine the two, and incorporate hard sparring into self-defense training.

* Even the best classes cannot truly replicate what people go through in a real street fight. Rory Miller addresses this very well in his book Meditations on Violence.

* That being said, enough good, hard training with lots of work against opposing opponents can help prepare someone for a self-defense situation. For example, I was talking to someone who works for immigration services in Australia. He regularly trained in some very basic yet effective empty hand defenses against a knife. Recently, he had a knife drawn on him, and was able to use the techniques to defend himself. He said, “It was just like what we do in training.” Will that always be the case? Probably not, but things like this happen.

 

[jks9199]

I train regularly to shoot someone. Haven't done it yet; closest is with the Taser, which I have shot someone with. Or maybe marking cartridges... which I have shot people with plenty of times. But really shooting someone dead? Nope. Been about 1/16th of an inch or so from it once... but they complied before I finished the trigger squeeze.

Sure as hell hope I never do have to shoot someone. But I am confident that, if it was appropriate, I'd do it.

I'm trained in delivering a baby. Don't really want to do that, either.

But I think that sort of thing is going astray of the original question. I think I can fairly rephrase the original question as: Is it possible to have sufficient knowledge in one area, even if your focus is something different -- or is the training and knowledge exclusive? My answer there is that yes, it is possible to have the knowledge of one aspect, sufficient to coach and instruct it, when your focus is in a different area. There will be limits -- but it's possible to learn enough and be able to do it.

 

[James Kovacich]

Can you support that statement? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

When speaking of sport, in this case I'm referring to MMA where there are young loose cannons while traditional martialists have differant approach mentally and physically to the arts and many never get in a real fight.

MMA train to fight and just add alcohol...

I'd like to add BJJ sport fighters are way underestimated in their overall abilities. In my opinion they are closely right up their with MMA in fight readiness.

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[Dirty Dog]

Thanks, DD. In my response to Frank Raud, I tried to be a little more clear. Do you think that one can become an expert in something he or she never actually does?

Sure, but like most other things, there are degrees of expertise. When there is opportunity to practice something in a real setting, the expertise garnered from that experience certainly outweighs purely theoretical or lab-setting experience.
I can teach you how to put in a chest tube using a side of beef or a cadaver of various species. That's fairly analogous to what we do in the dojang. And having performed the procedure on a few chunks of dead meat, you can be confident that you'll be able to perform it on an actual person. And having done it a few times on actual people, you can be confident that you'll be able to it on an actual person while squatting in a ditch, in the middle of the night, with a flashlight in your teeth.
Most trauma surgeons have never put in a chest tube in a ditch. I have. Which of us is the more expert?

The physical side of things is relatively simple, and there are always ways to train for it. The emotional side remains the part that no training can prepare you for.