Is it disrespectful to ask your (ITF) master to teach you the old way of TKD punching (Karate)

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Axiom, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Unless there's something useful to be gained by understanding the other way, too. Or, at least, nothing harmful about learning it.
     
  2. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    I don't see how since it's not part of a formal class if I ask him to give me private instruction. And he does have some time over after class, and usually don't mind instructing some more. TaeKwondo is not his occupation, it's his life. That sort of guy.
     
  3. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    The paradox is that he does emphasis a karate like hip-twist in some of the pads practise. But in forms it's sine wave. I would like to learn it in forms, in-depth.
     
  4. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    Sorry, boxing-like hip-twist. not Karate. using your entire body when punching pads..
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  5. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    Double post.
     
  6. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    It's using an up & down bouncing motion to develop power, rather than twisting.
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Off topic posts split off.
     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    When was the change made? And what drove it?
     
  9. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    Thank you
     
  10. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    In a nutshell, to differentiate itself from Karate. Introduced in a seminar in 1980.

    Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy

    This is of particular interest:

    Sitting Stance Punch
    Both subject’s punches with one hand were harder using the sine wave and their punches with the other were weaker using it. However the differences in power generated were small, as low as 0.25% in one case. On average, the difference in power generated using the sitting stance punch with and without sine wave was negligible.

    Walking Stance Reverse Punch
    One subject punched harder with one hand using sine wave and harder with the other without it. The other punched harder without sine wave with both hands. On average, the force generated from a reserve punch in walking stance without using the sine wave was 4% higher than the same technique using sine wave.
     
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  11. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Mmm. An interesting choice of article.
     
  12. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    This was also interesting but not surprising:

    Boxing style punch

    Subjects were required to assume a regular boxing style stance and punch from their back hand using standard boxing technique (i.e. hands up, chin down, turning shoulder into the punch etc). On average, this type of punch was found to be 30% more powerful than the traditional punches


    Although my cousin who's a top 15 pro boxer, and has sparred Wladimir Klitchko, still concider Karate punches better bare knuckled in a street fight, although he never trained Karate. Because the hands will break easier with boxings haymakers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  13. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I was introduced to it in the mid-'70's. Gen Choi believed it to be a superior method of power generation, although I've never found that to be true.

    As an instructor, I'm always happy to work with students on different ways to perform a technique. I honestly cannot imagine one of our students being afraid to ask me a question about anything we teach for fear of offending me.
     
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  14. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    I never had it explained to me why we perform it in forms only, if it is indeed a more powerful/superior method. Any ideas?
     
  15. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    The principles taught by learning poomsae should carry over to all aspects of your MA training. If they're not, then I'd say you're not learning the principles correctly (as has been mentioned by several people, poomsae is a LOT more than just memorizing movements), or that the principles are flawed.
    Personally, I've never found sine-wave to be a superior method of generating power. I neither practice it routinely nor teach it, as a rule, although I've had the occasional student ask about it (usually after watching YouTube videos) and I'm happy to show them how it works.
    Having said that, I will also say that while I do not care for sine-wave in general, there are certainly specific techniques (downward hammerfists or elbows, for example) which will certainly benefit from this method of power generation.
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Is StuartA still around, he's still a member I think though haven't seen him on here for a long time. The ideal person to explain if he is.
     
  17. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    Nah, the instructor states explicitly that "patterns are sine wave, "mitts/pad practise we twist our hip (although more boxing-like mechanics than Karate). And I don't for the life of me understand why. That's not even mentioning sparring where of course sine wave is nowhere to be found.
     
  18. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I think you just proved my point. Thanks.
     
  19. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    That my TKD is disjointed mess?
     
  20. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Apparently, judging only by what you say. Whether that is a problem with the teaching or the student cannot be determined with certainty in this forum.
     

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