Is it common for flexible people later in life to have bad muscle memory from when they weren't?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Do you have any clips?

Nope. Don't typically take videos of myself, and not sure it'd be worth it at this point with me not going to the dojo/it supposed to be snowing where I live to take one.
I'm also not too concerned about it, particularly now I know I'm not the only one with the issue, and it probably is mental more than anything (body doesn't want to whiff having whiffed in the past).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's not true. Once I started to kick with open hips, which I never did in my first years, it always stayed with my mechanics even when I stopped training for 6+ months and when I felt a lot stiffer.

That's the neurology of it. A lot of it, IIRC, comes from synaptic pruning. A very interesting topic to look into if you haven't before.

 

[Acronym]

Nope. Don't typically take videos of myself, and not sure it'd be worth it at this point with me not going to the dojo/it supposed to be snowing where I live to take one.
I'm also not too concerned about it, particularly now I know I'm not the only one with the issue, and it probably is mental more than anything (body doesn't want to whiff having whiffed in the past).

But how do you know your technique is correct if you never film it? I

 

[Acronym]

That's the neurology of it. A lot of it, IIRC, comes from synaptic pruning. A very interesting topic to look into if you haven't before.

It's very interesting. I thought I would revert back to the way I kicked when I was stiff as a beginner

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But how do you know your technique is correct if you never film it? I

That's a weird question. How do you think people knew their technique was correct before cameras existed/were popular?

 

[Acronym]

That's a weird question. How do you think people knew their technique was correct before cameras existed/were popular?

They didn't. Hence why a lot of them did things wrong without knowing it and thought they looked good.

Here is a pretty good example of that.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I have the same issue, thought I was alone on that. I can't kick nearly as high if there's not a pad there, or a body/head.

You are not alone. I have a theory on why; part neurological, part psychological. Much of our brain is devoted to vision and many of our body's functions are tied into what we see.

When we try to kick high with no target to see, the leg gets a "generalized" instruction. Like "proceed in a northerly direction." When we do the same with an actual visual target, our body gets "specific" instruction, like having GPS coordinates. Now the kicking leg has an "anchor" to be drawn to. This, along with relaxation, allows the kick to go higher.

I don't have the background to scientifically explain this phenomenon, but to me, it intuitively seems a way to describe it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They didn't. Hence why a lot of them did things wrong without knowing it and thought they looked good.

Here is a pretty good example of that.

View attachment 23384

So first, people still do things wrong all the time.

But as an answer to your question-I started training at like 3/4. The first 15/20 years I trained under people who became pickier about my technique, and would point out whenever my technique was bad. I know they did so accurately by seeing their changes to others' technique. I also had mirrors around me for the most part, so I could see the results. I could also feel if things were working through drills and light & full contact sparring-if it didn't work, either I was doing something wrong, or the technique was bad. If it did work, that probably means my technique is good. There are also drills that only work if you do the tech correctly. (I think I mentioned on here one with a wall to make sure your elbows aren't flaring before).

Then I also started training with people of a lot of different styles, while crosstraining as well, and sparring those people. This provided more feedback when new teachers would look at my tech and I could also try them against people from different styles.

At some point, I reached a point where I can 'feel' when techniques aren't right. It's tough to explain but your body just knows when you're doing it wrong. That might be a result of synaptic pruning/'muscle memory', might be just that muscles or more sensitive to unnatural/harmful movements, I'm not sure. I still get (or got before this year) feedback on my tech, as when you go too long without feedback (or video if you don't have feedback as an option), your habits can change a bit, but for the most part this year I've been trusting my body and ability to have proper technique.

 

[Acronym]

So first, people still do things wrong all the time.

But as an answer to your question-I started training at like 3/4. The first 15/20 years I trained under people who became pickier about my technique, and would point out whenever my technique was bad. I know they did so accurately by seeing their changes to others' technique. I also had mirrors around me for the most part, so I could see the results. I could also feel if things were working through drills and light & full contact sparring-if it didn't work, either I was doing something wrong, or the technique was bad. If it did work, that probably means my technique is good. There are also drills that only work if you do the tech correctly. (I think I mentioned on here one with a wall to make sure your elbows aren't flaring before).

Then I also started training with people of a lot of different styles, while crosstraining as well, and sparring those people. This provided more feedback when new teachers would look at my tech and I could also try them against people from different styles.

At some point, I reached a point where I can 'feel' when techniques aren't right. It's tough to explain but your body just knows when you're doing it wrong. That might be a result of synaptic pruning/'muscle memory', might be just that muscles or more sensitive to unnatural/harmful movements, I'm not sure. I still get (or got before this year) feedback on my tech, as when you go too long without feedback (or video if you don't have feedback as an option), your habits can change a bit, but for the most part this year I've been trusting my body and ability to have proper technique.

In my experience, asking other students and the instructor if something looks good is not sufficient. I filmed for the first time and all I saw was bent legs and closed hips which nobody told me in the school. People just look after themselves at the end of the day.

But if you have a mirro and have space to move around it's the same thing as filming.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In my experience, asking other students and the instructor if something looks good is not sufficient. I filmed for the first time and all I saw was bent legs and closed hips which nobody told me in the school. People just look after themselves at the end of the day.

But if you have a mirro and have space to move around it's the same thing as filming.

That may be an issue with the school more than anything else. That's why I pointed out that I trained with people from multiple different styles/schools. So if one taught me something that was bad/less than ideal, I'd see an alternative, or have bad form pointed out, when I went to a different school. At least in my experience the line "People just look after themselves at the end of the day.". Everyone is always helping each other out.

The other part is that this is why resistance and at least some full contact/hard contact sparring helps. If you keep getting countered whenever you do X, rather than just move to Y, figure out what's wrong with X that it's not working for you. This is the point I would use a video I guess if I needed to, to video the sparring and see exactly why/how I was doing something wrong.

 

[Acronym]

At some point, I reached a point where I can 'feel' when techniques aren't right. It

Punching yes.. Kicking no way. You can't see your own hips and frame. I looked like absolute dog **** but had no clue, and I even thought I was good, let alone average.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Punching yes.. Kicking no way. You can't see your own hips and frame. I looked like absolute dog **** but had no clue i even thought I was good, let alone average.

I said feel, not see. Again this is after you're technique is already good. For reference I hit this point probably around age 21, so training for 18 years (8 years since I was a teenager which is where I consider it starting), and the last 3 years of that I was training and/or sparring about 3 hours a day most days.

 

[Acronym]

I said feel, not see. Again this is after you're technique is already good. For reference I hit this point probably around age 21, so training for 18 years (8 years since I was a teenager which is where I consider it starting), and the last 3 years of that I was training and/or sparring about 3 hours a day most days.

If you have a lay off and then start again you might think you are doing things the way you did before even though you aren't. The synaptic processes you were referring to do not store everything 100%. Your body slags with inactivity in ways you don't even feel once you are back. For instance fully turning over the hip in the roundhouse kick is a typical thing that gets lost with inactivity even though you could have sworn you did it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If you have a lay off and then start again you might think you are doing things the way you did before even though you aren't. The synaptic processes you were referring to do not store everything 100%. Your body slags with inactivity in ways you don't even feel once you are back. For instance fully turning over the hip in the roundhouse kick is a typical thing that gets lost with inactivity even though you could have sworn you did it.

Yup, absolutely. That's when you've (or I've, since you use video) have to go to a gym/dojo for a couple sessions or so to be made aware of what I'm doing wrong. That doesn't happen to me too often though since even when I'm not training somewhere, I try to be consistent at home..the bigger issue is when I change focus (my focus lately has been punching and weapons, I'm sure when I go back my kicks and grappling will need a lot more tune up).

 

[Acronym]

Yup, absolutely. That's when you've (or I've, since you use video) have to go to a gym/dojo for a couple sessions or so to be made aware of what I'm doing wrong. That doesn't happen to me too often though since even when I'm not training somewhere, I try to be consistent at home..the bigger issue is when I change focus (my focus lately has been punching and weapons, I'm sure when I go back my kicks and grappling will need a lot more tune up).

You can maintain it for a while by shadow kicking randomly, but it reaches a point eventually where the leg muscles just aren't there anymore and you either lose power or form or both. Getting back is fast but not fast enough to defend yourself. You don't have kick trials in a self defense situation, were you to ever need it

 

[jobo]

You can maintain it for a while by shadow kicking randomly, but it reaches a point eventually where the leg muscles just aren't there anymore and you either lose power or form or both. Getting back is fast but not fast enough to defend yourself. You don't have kick trials in a self defense situation, were you to ever need it

you MAY loose some fine motor skills with a lay off, but kicking someone is rather gross motorskills, which take years to diminish, if they dimish at all, if you loose a little flexability kick lower, it still hurts

 

[Acronym]

you MAY loose some fine motor skills with a lay off, but kicking someone is rather gross motorskills, which take years to diminish, if they dimish at all, if you loose a little flexability kick lower, it still hurts

That's why I wrote that he doesn’t get kick trials. If he had 15 kicks to prepare, then get to kick, he could probably dust off a decent attacker. So it's not so much that it's lost but that it needs to be retrieved

 

[jobo]

That's why I wrote that he doesn’t get kick trials. If he had 15 kicks to prepare, then get to kick, he could probably dust a decent attacker. So it's not so much that it's lost but that it needs to be retrieved

yes and im saying that a lay off of a few months will have almost no detrimental effect on kicking someone or any other ingrained gross motor skill, i can still use a hammer after a couple of years off, using a hammer as a precision bendibg tool arcurate to half a mm, takes a short time to recover, just wacking thibgs im fine

 

[Acronym]

yes and im saying that a lay off of a few months will have almost no detrimental effect on kicking someone or any other ingrained gross motor skill, i can still use a hammer after a couple of years off, using a hammer as a precision bendibg tool arcurate to half a mm, takes a short time to recover, just wacking thibgs im fine

I'm not either. 3 months is usually fine.

 

[dvcochran]

Are you sure it's just not the fact that you aren't sufficiently warmed up at home and thus your body locks up? I would say what you are describing is not normal.

No, it is normal. However I feel it is harder to gauge the actual kick when kicking air. It may actually be just as high/strong but it is harder to measure this.