Is hardcore martial arts training really the most "balanced" training for a well rounded body?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bullsherdog, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    He didnt say " know how to fight" he said " cant fight " and yes anyone can fight, which is my point

    Which is why i asked him for his defintion of " cant fight"
     
  2. FriedRice

    FriedRice Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    97
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    san jose
    I'm not an ESOL decoder, sorry.
     
  3. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    I am asking what your defintion of " can't fight " is ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  4. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    536
    Trophy Points:
    213
    It's got to be said, you're an argumentative twat sometimes, which is sometimes funny, sometimes tedious.

    But in this case I have to say I agree with your viewpoint - no matter how much agreeing with you makes my cheeks clench...

    Also, it'd be novel to see this guy in action - it should be good given his high opinion of his skills. (By the way, this paragraph is loaded with sarcasm.)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. FriedRice

    FriedRice Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    97
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    san jose
    You're not as clever as you thought you were when you have to announce that you were being sarcastic.
     
  6. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    536
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Is that the best you can do with that?
     
  7. FriedRice

    FriedRice Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    97
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    san jose
    Don't be mad homie :D
     
  8. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    536
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I'm not mad, just disappointed.
     
  9. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Be under no illusion, unless phase 1 training has trained significantly they cant teach you fair amounts of it due to classified information and its to make a soldier for the modern world. Which is rifles. You also have to pass a fitness test before you can partake in actual military training and are stuck there at minimum a month(dont quote me). Oh and ITS TRAINING, not everyone can do it and thats the point. Then phase 2 would be based on the job you have. (for completeness for the U.K system)

    Anything civilian wise would be a weird mock up of a "boot camp" but onto the combtives. Most militaries go with the simple type, given its last resort and helps build aggressiveness, thats if they do it at all. (which a lot dont and its definitely reserved if they do for infantry and infantry considered elite/going to be deployed) Some also teach fighting for your rifle/pistol should it be grabbed more than unarmed, but that depends. BUT, that category of combative is good if you cant afford/don't have time/cant routinely get to martial arts and just want to learn how to defend yourself, since its easy to learn, remember and works for most situations and there are plenty of civilian and civilians who teach this type of combatives. i would enthisise you do a combatives first then go onto martial arts for self improvement so you have your short term covered.

    edit: I have seen someone describe their system as inspired by WW2 comabtives and adds the legal system as a new opponent rather than just being allowed to kill a enemy combatant you need to take into account the legal system.


    Excuse any unclear points. Also this is with what information i have, as i havent done it and some of its confidental anyway so its publically released information.

    addendum: Military training is good at making soldiers, pending quality of the training program by the patron country. And which branch/unit you are going into.

    addendum 2: to prepare for actual combat to kill and maim people in what ever situation requires a good general knowledge in everything, you need to be able to beat someone no matter what situation it is. This is different from doing kickboxing to fight in kick boxing matches etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  10. FriedRice

    FriedRice Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    97
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    san jose
    Sounding mad though :D
     
  11. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    18
    "Jack of all trades, master of none,
    though oftentimes better than master of one."
    Thats another use of the same quote. It can be used to support or denounce general knowledge/not specializing.

    Its not that clear cut in every field/situation.



    (forgot to quote you in before posting, pahaha)
     
  12. Saheim

    Saheim Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Kansas
    Absolutely Not! Not even close and I do not believe that was ever the intention of "hardcore karate"

    I dunno, maybe pilates, calisthenics, maybe gymnastics but not "hardcore karate".

    We are weaponizing our bodies to perform tasks they were never meant for. Harder bones, thicker skin, desensitized nerve ending, etc all for the purpose of using our body to structurally damage someone else's. Being healthy, in some areas, is a byproduct of this training NOT its purpose.

    Seriously, if you are looking for the best all round physical health, there are probably MANY better options.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2018
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I think it's pretty accurate to say that to be a top MMA competitor you've got to be in pretty amazing shape, and that it's also true that in most cases you aren't going to get through a real military boot camp without being in some sort of reasonable shape. This doesn't necessarily make either of these, or other forms of "hard core" martial arts or military training the best, fastest, safest, or most efficient way to get in shape for a specific individual or for a specific goal.

    Military training is definitely not the most efficient way for an individual to get in shape. It's an efficient way for governments to get large numbers of young people in adequate shape for the work they'll be called upon to do, while at the same time instilling a necessary response to their superiors, mental toughness and indoctrination into military organization - all while providing basic skills training with weaponry, etc. It's designed to work well enough, fast enough, for enough young people to become fit enough, without washing out an excessive number of potential service members.

    Now elite units may get much more training, but even then it's focused on the job role, not the individual. And with elite units especially, survivor bias (Survivorship bias - Wikipedia) plays an enormous role in appearances. You don't get to be a US Navy SEAL if you can't hack the training, so if you are a SEAL you're going to be in pretty great shape, people who are incapable of doing the training don't get to be SEAL's. It also means that if you have the potential to make it as a SEAL you're likely to get great results from lots of different training programs that only produce mediocre or poor results for other people who couldn't make it as SEAL's.

    Survivor bias is also huge in any pro sport, be it pro level MMA, soccer, basketball, Olympic champion, whatever. If you can make it at that level not only have you trained really hard, you are gifted with tremendous genetics for that activity. This presents in a lot of different ways, some of them obvious and some less so. For the obvious; You don't get to play in the NBA if you're 5'5" pretty much no matter how skilled you are at basketball. At the same time, at the elite level that is the NBA, you still don't get to play if you're 7' 2" and aren't amazing at basketball. Going further, it's obvious to pretty much everyone that no matter how much you play basketball and how early you start it isn't going to make you taller, though it'll probably give you better wind and stronger legs.

    Strangely, people can't seem to figure this out when it comes to most other athletic activities. I regularly hear people say things like, "I want to have the long, lean body of an Olympic swimmer so I'm going to swim". And sure, swimming can help with that lean part as could basketball or MMA, but Olympic swimmers mainly all have the same kind of body because that's the best body type for an Olympic swimmer and just like basketball, people who don't have that body type don't make it to the Olympics for swimming. The most frustrating for me personally is when people tell me they don't want to lift weights or do resistance training because they don't want to look like Mr. Olympia. As if looking anything even vaguely like Mr. Olympia didn't take an extraordinary combination of very unusual genes, tremendous work, and an exotic cocktail of steroids and hormone use.

    Beyond dictating how well structured your body is for an individual sport, genetics, along with overall health, age, stress levels and similar factors play a big role in how you're going to respond to training. Having worked as a strength training instructor for over a decade now, I've seen people who can recover quickly and get fantastic results doing very high intensity strength training 2 or more times a week, along with intense martial arts or other athletic activity on top of it. I've also seen clients who make no progress or regress with that sort of regimen, but get good results doing only one or two high intensity workouts per month combined with regular low to moderate intensity activities. Some of the first group would probably make it as SEAL's where none of the second group would, but that doesn't mean that most of the second group can't become much stronger and fitter than the average hobbyist athlete, they just have to train in a way that works for their current life situation.

    Finally, fitness is fairly specific to individual activities. If you want to be able to do 5 minute MMA rounds you need to train very differently than if you want to run marathons. Both of which are different than the ideal choices for a competitive power lifter. We all have limited recovery systems and a limited tolerance for work so we can't train optimally for all things. Even if you have the genetics to be both an Olympic power lifter and a Navy SEAL you probably can't do both at the same time and almost certainly won't be as good at either if you can and do both. Luckily, if you're in great shape for one form of athletic activity that should be sufficient for good health and there are few situations where being in shape for one activity is actively detrimental to another.

    Sorry for the gigantic post. I'll end here...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    536
    Trophy Points:
    213
    2 words.

    Tyrone Bogues.

    That is all.




    (Well, nearly all - he wasn't 5'5", he was 5'3"...)
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2018
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Well, I did say PRETTY much... And it didn't make him any taller!;)
     
  16. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    536
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I don't think "getting taller" was one of his motivations for taking up basketball in the first place though.



    Edit: it might have been - to be completely honest I'd never heard of him until I googled "shortest NBA players" :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2018
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I don't follow basketball all that much but I vaguely remembered this guy when I made my post and went back and edited it to read "pretty much". I really had no idea he was that short though. Pretty amazing!
     
  18. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    821
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    He was actually a pretty good ballplayer. Knew what to work on, rather than trying to be good at everything. Not many others came close to him in height.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    536
    Trophy Points:
    213
     
  20. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    3,434
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Trophy Points:
    353
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Muggsy Bouges was the man. He had the all-time assist to turnover ratio record for a while at least, and probably still holds it. He’s 5’3. Spud Webb, pictured next to him is 5’7. He won an NBA slam dunk contest.
    1592DBD9-FE0F-412F-B0D4-BF93797E6938.jpeg
    I didn’t watch Webb much, as he retired when I was younger.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page