Is Goju Ryus reputation as street effective attributed to its close range emphasis?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Axiom, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I thought that part was undisputed because of Shotokans holes in close range combat. Funakoshi did incorporate things for that as well but if it was not passed on to the specific instructor, it would not be part of the curriculum. Thus we find ourselves today with Shotokan as widely practised, low on close range-techniques, and more of a one trick pony, one dimensional, pick your term.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    12,680
    Likes Received:
    2,472
    Trophy Points:
    263




    Kind of seeing infighting and outfighting from both.

    What am I missing here?
     
  3. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    2,422
    Likes Received:
    519
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    New York
    I only know one person who practiced Shotokan, he practiced (only) it for about 15 years before switching to kenpo. I've sparred with him enough times, that I know he is not one-dimensional or a one-trick pony. When it came to sparring, he was on par or better than judoka, kenpoists and TKD practitioners that trained at the dojo with us.
     
  4. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    That's right, you sparred with him. Did I not say sparring type of fighting was their bread and butter?;)
     
  5. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Anybody taking me to mean that Shotokan does not work for self defence, is mistaken. Goju Ryu being more effective does not entail the other one is useless...Just not as effective.
     
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    12,680
    Likes Received:
    2,472
    Trophy Points:
    263
    But ok. lets look at outfighting and infighting. Here are two guys from the same gym. Both of them are reasonably successful in what they do. One infights one outfights.

    Infighter.


    Outfighter.


    Here is the concept. A fight still is not about showcasing your style. It is about using the best methods you can to not get yourself bashed. So dont be suprised if you see infighters outfighting and visa versa. A good fighter will be able to employ either method.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Absolutely. I would still favor the guy with a plan B if they are equally matched, though. And Goju appears less one dimensional than Shotokan and TaeKwondo. Heck, our own TKD instructor states clearly: "Close range is not where we want to be".
     
  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    24,233
    Likes Received:
    3,564
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    'Sparring' type of fighting? what do you think sparring is?

    I know some very good full contact Shotokan karateka.

    I don't and haven't done 'point fighting'. Most people I know don't either. We didn't compete in this as we aren't Shotokan but we went to watch as it was wasn't far from us. The Brit is Frank Brennan.
     
  9. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    2,422
    Likes Received:
    519
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    New York
    You said it's a one-trick pony, and one-dimensional. I took that to mean that they are good at sparring within their ruleset. The sparring that we did was not point sparring, and included grappling along with striking (closer to fighting than anything else I'm aware of).

    Did I misunderstand what you meant?
     
  10. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    608
    Trophy Points:
    218
    The rule set is important. Shotokan has its own rule set, uechi has its rule set, kyokushin has its own rule set. They are all point sparring but not equal.
    A shotokan in a Uechi tournament will not do well and a Uechi guy in a TKD tournament won't even get a single point.
    Just like "the street" it all depends.
     
  11. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    How do you know that guy wasn't an outlier? I'm a complete outlier when it comes to fighting in TKD. I prefer close range, grapple quite well, good jab. Absolutely dreadful leg dexterity in sparring. Can't do kick sparring to save my life. Although I can perform the moves when given time in patterns, I'm simply too slow for kick sparring,.
     
  12. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Sparring is one type of fighting, self defence is another. It is in the area of self defence that Shotokan is in my opinion less effective than Goju Ryu.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. DaveB

    DaveB Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Axiom, you should really try and let go of your preconceptions and take on what everyone else is telling you.

    You are trying to use vague generalities largely based on the competition formats you've seen to understand these fighting styles. The real world is simply not that black and white.

    The things you think are facts not worth questioning are at best just opinions and at worst fabrications.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    No, I base it on their respective curriculum. When it comes to sparring, Gojus fight very similiar to Shotokan guys, only less well on average, arguably. The difference is that when it comes to grappling, Shotokan Karatekas jn general have a huge hole. I state my opinions and I (as most people with opinions) concider my opinions to be founded in reality, thus part of the fabrict of facts. But I will never argue to prove them as facts, which you guys seem to require of me. I just argue my points and you can take it or leave it.
     
  15. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    2,422
    Likes Received:
    519
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    New York
    I've got no idea if he was an outlier or not. I have no other knowledge of goju ryu karatekas or shotokan karatekas to compare it to. I also have no clue whatsoever, and couldn't care in the slightest, which of the two is better for "the street".

    But, since that is the only art he practiced beforehand, it shows that shotokan is capable of being more than one-dimensional, in the same way your original post about the goju ryu thug (who is definitely an outlier if he's won multiple championships) shows that goju ryu can be street-effective.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Anarax

    Anarax Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2017
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    New Mexico
    My training in Goju was probably the most physical intense training I've ever done. Punching and kicking until you have a pool of sweat around you. Limb conditioning until your arms and legs are throbbing. Smart yet hard sparring then grappling afterwards. My Goju instructor is probably the toughest and most knowledgeable out of all my other instructors. I can't attest with the whole "Street Fighting" aspect, but I can tell you my Goju training was the most physically challenging thing I've done. I agree with one of the other posters, the training culture you are in plays a tremendous factor in your capabilities. In other words, you're not going to get the same results training with children than you would training with tough dedicated students. It's more about the environment opposed to the style or system itself.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    12,680
    Likes Received:
    2,472
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Here we go by the way the ibrahims were all tkd guys as an example of mabye unlikley martial arts that were used to routinely bash people.

    No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

    I know of some MMA guys who are enfocers for bikies.

    So a krotty guy running around as some sort of enforcer is not really that big a stretch.
     
  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    24,233
    Likes Received:
    3,564
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    Sparring isn't fighting. Sparring is a training tool. Self defence isn't fighting. Self defence training is just that. One doesn't always end up fighting if your self defence is good.

    So, you look at a school/club's curriculum and decide whether they can 'fight' or not? When it comes to sparring or as you like to call it 'fighting', how do you actually know what they do, have you been to competitions all over the UK and Europe as well as North and south America, Asia etc to know definitively how they fight/spar?



    Do you think this is perhaps because they don't train grappling, possibly? They also don't enter grappling competitions nor pretend to know anything about it unless they also train a grappling style. They aim to keep standing and frankly there's nothing wrong with that. It's not a fault on their part it's a preference.





    Possibly one of the most big headed statements I've read recently. Most people know their are opinions are just that but you seem to be convinced of your own superior knowledge to people who have been training longer than you've been alive. the thing too is you aren't arguing your points, you are making statements, erroneous ones mostly, and posting them as facts with nothing to back up why what you think could be true. That's pretentious and makes you look big headed.

    What are your qualifications for judging other styles? Have you trained Shotokan or any karate style? how long have you been training? How many Dan grades do you have?


    I'm not sure what you think a 'street fighter' is, do you mean someone who brawls in the streets and pubs? Outside of films and television the only 'streetfighters' are self named as such. Most people I know use it as a term of abuse for an idiot who gets into fights with drunks.


    You are therefore a very bad TKD student. What's the point in training in a style if you don't learn it? You would be better to train MMA. By the way what do you think patterns are for?
     
  19. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,146
    Likes Received:
    880
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I just want to add I train Goju and just held a universal wide open championship competition about 5 min ago every style was invited I represented Earth in the competition and all the other planets were too afraid to send a challenger so I won. I am now a Champion of the Universe so Goju is the best in the universe. Case Closed.
     
    • Funny Funny x 6
  20. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    6,289
    Likes Received:
    3,631
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    So that was you! I knew it.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page